False Sun Clarifications request

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TaoHorror

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« on: May 17, 2017, 01:38:46 pm »
Friends!

Ok, for those of you with empathy for the occasionally ( ok, with me, frequently ) confused, have some questions I couldn't ferret out from previous threads easily.

What's the deal with the Mathesis Pin? Shaeönanra teaches Cet’ingira how to make one and Cet goes on to make a bunch which is what is employed to spring the trap on Titirga? Was Cet near them in the room or was that flashback away from the present confrontation? Gets hazy on that with me. Maybe someone can respond with a kind of short order of events if flashbacks are employed? Out of nowhere the text goes to construction of the Pin and then back to Titirga confronting Shae. Cants of Concussion are used to collapse the floor, so what did the Pin and 6 days of singing had to do with anything?

Just one thing - appears it was Tirtiga's arrogance about his power that did him in, yelling at Shae in lieu of protecting himself, but still seems someone of his might would've been able to react before the Cants completed - guess he couldn't walk into the air or float since that magic is based on the turf below you. He did survive the fall requiring they bury him, but still think he could've done something defense or counter attack - maybe the Cants are too quick or something.

The "celebration" between Cet and Inchoroi was some nasty evil shit! The whole thing so ugly, hard to digest. Coupling sex with violence, goading over those you've rolled is mad stuff.

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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2017, 01:48:14 pm »
Friends!

Ok, for those of you with empathy for the occasionally ( ok, with me, frequently ) confused, have some questions I couldn't ferret out from previous threads easily.

What's the deal with the Mathesis Pin? Shaeönanra teaches Cet’ingira how to make one and Cet goes on to make a bunch which is what is employed to spring the trap on Titirga? Was Cet near them in the room or was that flashback away from the present confrontation? Gets hazy on that with me. Maybe someone can respond with a kind of short order of events if flashbacks are employed? Out of nowhere the text goes to construction of the Pin and then back to Titirga confronting Shae. Cants of Concussion are used to collapse the floor, so what did the Pin and 6 days of singing had to do with anything?

The Pin has nothing to do with the confrontation with Titirga.  It's unclear if those interludes (i.e. the text in italics) take place before or after what happens there Nogaral, but certainly the fact that Shae has seen the Inverse Fire means they have already gotten into the Ark and seen the Golden Room points to it being likely that it takes place before.

The point of those interludes are to give you an idea of why Shae is out to kill Titirga, i.e. he has fully given himself over to the Inchoroi (now Consult) view of things, to which Titirga is a definite hindrance.

Just one thing - appears it was Tirtiga's arrogance about his power that did him in, yelling at Shae in lieu of protecting himself, but still seems someone of his might would've been able to react before the Cants completed - guess he couldn't walk into the air or float since that magic is based on the turf below you. He did survive the fall requiring they bury him, but still think he could've done something defense or counter attack - maybe the Cants are too quick or something.

The "celebration" between Cet and Inchoroi was some nasty evil shit! The whole thing so ugly, hard to digest. Coupling sex with violence, goading over those you've rolled is mad stuff.

Sorcery is very powerful, but it is still somewhat limited.  Titiraga's ability to "fly" is limited, as the rest of sorcerers are, to walking on the echos of the ground.  No ground, no walking.  We are spoiled by Kellhus' power-level, since he can simply teleport anywhere he wants.  No one else has ever been able to do that.  Certainly though, Titirga's headstrong haughtiness certainly did get him killed.  He shouldn't have even been there, really.  He walked himself into a trap, probably knowing it would be a trap, but thinking he could defeat it just the same.

And lastly, that's just Aurang being Aurang...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2017, 02:33:53 pm »
Mathesis Pin: Created by Shae to break the barricades. This is the end of the MP in this story. This flashback is used to show how Shae ended up chillin' with the Inchoroi, seeing the IF, being converted to their side, and eventually forming the Unholy Consult.

Titirga/Shae Trap: Shae et al dug a big hole and scooby-doo style covered it up with a carpet. Titirga stepped onto the carpet, Shae released some mechanism, Titirga falls to his death. Very slim chance that he was able to survive (recall, I believe TJE, Achamian talks about how many a schoolmen has fallen to their death walking over a hidden ravine). But, given that Titirga is the most power schoolmen, they decided that collapsing a mountain on top of him was a good idea.

Titirga's Demise: Titirga would have overmatched Shae or any other schoolmen in a direct confrontation. Shae played him like a fiddle. Lured Titirga into a trap, got him all fired up, distracted him with an Inchoroi, and literally pulled the rug from under him. Perhaps a cautionary tale for those who seem grossly more powerful than their rivals. Arrogance and ignorance are extreme weaknesses, and can be exploirted by one's enemies.

Aurang/Shae Love affair: Yeah, I mean the Inchies are all about the sexy times. A little of post victory coitous is pretty standard for them.


Hope that helps.
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2017, 02:41:42 pm »
Titirga/Shae Trap: Shae et al dug a big hole and scooby-doo style covered it up with a carpet.

Minor nit-pick, but the Viritic Well, or as it is referred to in TGO, The Great Well of Viri was already there, since it was the "axel" of the mansion of Viri.  But they did build the "carpet" over it, indeed.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2017, 02:58:06 pm »
Good clarification Its been a while since I've read it.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2017, 03:05:23 pm »
It seems he actually survived the fall with Shae noticing some murmur of sorcery way down there and then collapse the roof on them ( and apparently the mountain wanted in on the action and went in with it ).
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« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 03:32:13 pm »
It seems he actually survived the fall with Shae noticing some murmur of sorcery way down there and then collapse the roof on them ( and apparently the mountain wanted in on the action and went in with it ).

Two things we don't really know, one being what the hell is at the bottom of the Well, where Titirga would presumably land, and two, if his power could really move a mountain.

The implication is that realistically only certain death waits for him at the bottom and that his power, while great, would not be able to move so much earth above him.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 03:46:44 pm »
Oh, so it was Titirga who crashed the mountain, like a last ditch effort to bring Shae and Aurang down along with him? I thought the mountain crashed in due to fault lines/fractures from the wars of past.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 03:50:13 pm »
Shae and Aurang brought the mountain down on top of Titirga to kill Titirga, this seems clear to me.

Whether they did it to ensure he died, or because they knew he still lived, it seems that they had pre-planned to drop the entire mountain on him given how rapidly the thing collapsed.
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« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 05:11:58 pm »
Shae and Aurang brought the mountain down on top of Titirga to kill Titirga, this seems clear to me.

Whether they did it to ensure he died, or because they knew he still lived, it seems that they had pre-planned to drop the entire mountain on him given how rapidly the thing collapsed.

Yeah, I only meant in the sense that even if Titirga survived the fall and the collapsing debris, doubtful he could lift it all back out to escape.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 06:02:40 pm »
Shae and Aurang brought the mountain down on top of Titirga to kill Titirga, this seems clear to me.

Whether they did it to ensure he died, or because they knew he still lived, it seems that they had pre-planned to drop the entire mountain on him given how rapidly the thing collapsed.

Hmm ... me thinks maybe not ... this texts suggests unintended consequences - "Only Aurang's wings saved them" and the references to how the mountain collapsed thereafter from rot and tunneling.

The sky cracked. Iros shuddered. The impossible sun tipped and stumbled. Plumes of ejecta exploded from points along the mountain’s perimeter, scarcely visible for the Diurnal’s encompassing glare. The mound that had been Nogaral shrugged then slumped into its contradiction. It was as if a dome of cloth had been pressed into a dimple. Summit became basin. Illumination became shadow. The mountain had been rotten with Viri, its innumerable ways fractured by the cataclysmic impact of the Ark thousands of years before. The underworld mansion imploded, collapsed inward and downward, tier upon tier, hall upon hall, undone by this final indignity. This last outrage.
The Man and the Inchoroi toppled with it. Though suspended, they remained bound to the earth, and as with all drastic changes of circumstance, the meaning of their sorcery ceased to be. Only Aurang’s wings saved them. The Inchoroi seized the Man from kicking emptiness, bore him up beyond the Diurnal blue into the truth that was cold and night.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 06:16:12 pm »
Hmm, I'd have to reread more of it, I still think it was intentional, at least in part.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2017, 12:02:18 pm »
Well, what a difference 2 weeks can make ... just re-read False Sun and wow, seems seamless now, easily catching the flashbacks and feel I understand it all well. Just one remaining confusion, something I take will be answered in TUC - why is Earwa "Promised"? Hard to follow the PON story at times with so many lies, but from what Aurang says here, it wasn't an accident they crashed landed into Earwa ( well, maybe they didn't mean to crash, but appears they wanted to come here ). Best I can tell is the Inchoroi think Earwa is the key to avoiding hell ... so these "gods" exist/perceived outside of Earwa? I guess if they were "real", then that would be the case ... guess I'm not all in on the 100 actually existing as the 100. But Earwa shows the most "promise" to hide from the gods or it was "promised" to them by ... something.

So the conflict appears to come down to the Inverse Fire - does it's knowledge simply damn the "learner" ( apple from the tree of knowledge reference ) or Tekne modifies the nature of the "viewer" damning them in the eyes of god/gods ( either as actual possession/control or metaphorically in that if you reggae with your life stuff too much you've become something else, a corruption, an obscenity ). The ladder seems more likely to me given that the former would be a bit curious ( think the gods would WANT us to know what hell is so we would conform to avoid it piteously - but these are Bakker gods, so traditional worship may not apply - no big surprise a proud skeptic would think gods evil if they did indeed exist, Camu's theorem ). It's a fun conundrum given Shae's convincing self expression. To us, the reader, while his "relationship" with the Inchoroi and approach is mad, to him he's doing the sane thing which is to avoid damnation and whatever horror that requires, its moot compared to what awaits them for eternity ... he could be right.

Bakker has to be careful here that one of his readers doesn't get "the right idea", LOL!
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Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2017, 02:53:45 pm »
No reasons explicitly why Earwa is their Promised Land. Maybe because of the existence of magic? But even then, at least for the nonmen its a hereditary trait, make it something that, once grafted, they could take to different worlds. So I'm not really sure we are any closer now to knowing what makes Earwa the place they sought, or how they might have been able to identify it.

Seems to me that they might have thought every world that they exterminated was their Eden until their plans didn't work, so they moved on. Revisionist history that the last one they were able to make it to, the one they all died trying to cleanse/prepare/whatever just so happened to be the magical holy land.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 02:59:13 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 05:34:41 pm »
No reasons explicitly why Earwa is their Promised Land. Maybe because of the existence of magic? But even then, at least for the nonmen its a hereditary trait, make it something that, once grafted, they could take to different worlds. So I'm not really sure we are any closer now to knowing what makes Earwa the place they sought, or how they might have been able to identify it.

Seems to me that they might have thought every world that they exterminated was their Eden until their plans didn't work, so they moved on. Revisionist history that the last one they were able to make it to, the one they all died trying to cleanse/prepare/whatever just so happened to be the magical holy land.

Wouldn't it be the promised land because the Outside is connected to the inside via souls? Hence, magic...and also a way to disconnect the link between the two and leave the Gods howling at the gates for your soul.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,