[MSJ]

TH, okay well fuck statistics! I don't really care either way. I think you outlined my stance better than I can. I feel pretty much the exact same way. I have hunted, shot guns with friends in the fields, I just don't own a gun. Never had that much of a need, I'm not a huge hunter. I don't care if people own guns, only that they are fit to own and responsible with them.

I think your scenario of a robbery more realistic, and defenitely makes a gun for self-defense mute. I have never bought into arming civilians will stop crimes, mass murders, etc, etc. And you outlined the reasons why very well. It's bullshit.

ETA: I never really offered statistics, so you don't have to trust them, lol. I guess statistics is a bad word. Maybe just reality?

[TaoHorror]

Re-reading my post appears I've made a better argument for stronger gun control then not, but hey, that's how I roll. Also, I think I insulted Beard inadvertently - sorry, Beard. Appears you're fighting my fight, but I don't agree that a gun helps you much, if at all, and more likely to hurt you more than help in the case of a surprise attack - but it would make for a fun/funny movie scene ... "hey, man, hold on a second, before you shoot let me get my gun ... ". But I love ya, man!

[MSJ]

Again, I'm not for gun confiscation or the like. I'd just like to see better background checks, people with history of mental health or violent acts not allowed to own, and some way to enforce proper storage of guns. The last is hard and I don't know how you'd go about it. I'm not anti-gun at all, I just don't buy the reasons pro-gun gives for carte blanche ownership and open/concealed carry.

[BeardFisher-King]

Again, I'm not for gun confiscation or the like. I'd just like to see better background checks, people with history of mental health or violent acts not allowed to own, and some way to enforce proper storage of guns. The last is hard and I don't know how you'd go about it. I'm not anti-gun at all, I just don't buy the reasons pro-gun gives for carte blanche ownership and open/concealed carry.

I appreciate your passion on this, MSJ. The things of which you're in favor, though, are problematic in various ways. Enforcing proper storage of guns in the home bumps up against the Fourth Amendment. Background checks could legitimately become more arduous, but mental health.....unless one has a serious history of institutionalization, I can't see this being a barrier to legal gun ownership.

Nice kicking this around with you, MSJ!
-bfk

[BeardFisher-King]

Re-reading my post appears I've made a better argument for stronger gun control then not, but hey, that's how I roll. Also, I think I insulted Beard inadvertently - sorry, Beard. Appears you're fighting my fight, but I don't agree that a gun helps you much, if at all, and more likely to hurt you more than help in the case of a surprise attack - but it would make for a fun/funny movie scene ... "hey, man, hold on a second, before you shoot let me get my gun ... ". But I love ya, man!

I would say that the best method of self-defense would be to maintain as high a level of situational awareness as possible. Last fall, I was accosted by a man with a gun as I was walking from my apartment to my cab. Luckily, a car came down my street right at the guy, who was walking towards me in the street. I ran one way, he ran the other way. But he pretty much got the drop on me, because I was unarmed. When I spotted him, he was far enough away that had I been armed, I would have had time to react. But if he had been lurking in the bushes outside my door, or hiding by the cab, it wouldn't have mattered if I was armed or unarmed. Situations vary, and there is simply no hard and fast rule for what works and what doesn't work.

No offense at all, Tao. Just the free exchange of ideas. Take care. Have fun camping this weekend!
-bfk

[MSJ]

Again, I'm not for gun confiscation or the like. I'd just like to see better background checks, people with history of mental health or violent acts not allowed to own, and some way to enforce proper storage of guns. The last is hard and I don't know how you'd go about it. I'm not anti-gun at all, I just don't buy the reasons pro-gun gives for carte blanche ownership and open/concealed carry.

I appreciate your passion on this, MSJ. The things of which you're in favor, though, are problematic in various ways. Enforcing proper storage of guns in the home bumps up against the Fourth Amendment. Background checks could legitimately become more arduous, but mental health.....unless one has a serious history of institutionalization, I can't see this being a barrier to legal gun ownership.

Nice kicking this around with you, MSJ!
-bfk

Well, it's not really a passion of mine, I just have an opinion on it. Those are just ideas that could make it safer for everyone. Of course, it's always well that infringes upon this right, and that this right... But, to make things safer something will have to be done, regardless of who's feelings get hurt. But, that's the unlikely scenario. Undoubtedly, nothing will be done.

[MSJ]

Actually there are a few scenarios where I would be ok with open carry on civilians, they all involve jobs, though. I went into a gas station around my area out in the country and the girl behind the register was open carrying, and I thought that made sense. BfK, a taxi driver would be another occupation I could see carrying for protection. Now, of course, I believe they would have to go through the proper training and mental evaluations. And, I don't see the problem with mental evaluations, don't cops have to go through them? Other LEO's have to also, I believe. So, if you want your cops to be sane, the same should be for civilians also.

[BeardFisher-King]

Actually there are a few scenarios where I would be ok with open carry on civilians, they all involve jobs, though. I went into a gas station around my area out in the country and the girl behind the register was open carrying, and I thought that made sense. BfK, a taxi driver would be another occupation I could see carrying for protection. Now, of course, I believe they would have to go through the proper training and mental evaluations. And, I don't see the problem with mental evaluations, don't cops have to go through them? Other LEO's have to also, I believe. So, if you want your cops to be sane, the same should be for civilians also.

How the fuck am I going to pass a mental evaluation, MSJ?

"Now sir, your ID says your name is XXXXX XXXXXXX, but you insist that you are actually named Beardfisher King? What? Zöreius Öenghûs? Who the fuck is Zöreius Öenghûs? YOU are Zöreius Öenghûs? Get the fuck outta this office!"

.....so much for that plan.

Bottom line: If you're crazy enough to drive a cab, then you're way too crazy to carry a gun!

[MSJ]

Lol,

I don't believe that for a second.

[Hiro]

Before wading into the depths of this thread, let me share, on a brighter note, this:

https://twitter.com/somecrazyness/status/880268251426631685

contrast with:

https://twitter.com/deray/status/880409739015766016

[TaoHorror]

Good stuff, Hiro. The latter link is what you get when a freedom/right requiring civil/competent responsibility is politicized. The former link is what should be happening, the ladder is only designed to get politicians elected at our expense.

[MSJ]

Great stuff, Hiro! And, that brilliantly displays why a gun would only make a situation worse. That officer did the right thing and thats because he doesn't live in America where our police training is shoot first ask questions later. If that same siruation happened anywhere in America the man with the knife would've had a gun in his face immediately and probably have been shot out of his own fear and irrationale.

The latter, well, I was having this convo with my grandfather the other day. The problem with politics in America, in general, is that your either so far left your living in the Pacific or so far right the Atlantic. We can't coexist anymore politically. No one works to make things better for Americans on a whole, its only to further either the right or left agenda.