The Mysunsai and the Red Ghoul

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Wolfdrop

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« on: August 18, 2017, 12:48:10 pm »
I just reread this section and I still can't get my head round it.

Obwe Guswuran cheers Ishterebinth joining the Ordeal then within seconds essentially wants to 1v1 them, over perceiving slight?

A force of Quya and Ishroi that arguably relives the Ordeal but the Mysunsai and Tydonni turn on them?

What was the reason, I'm so confused  ???

Part of me thinks it's due to his link to their origin, he seems to kick off after seeing the Mysunsai symbol. Though I read it as he only inspired the Mysunsai rather than founding it and teaching them.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 01:06:04 pm by Wolfdrop »

H

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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2017, 01:06:02 pm »
No, it was the Red Ghoul who turned on them.

"Obw Gswuran stepped forward, led his Triune toward the Ishterebinthi, believing it his prerogative and obligation."

He moved forward because the Quya had.  He didn't want to be one-upped.  He believed he should be the van, not them.

"He seemed to notice the Schoolmen only when they were upon him, so deep had he fallen into the pit of himself. Frowning like a man just awoken, the Red Ghoul hung peering as the Mysunsai formed about him ... then saw the gold-embroidered Compass adorning the chest of Obw Gswuran ..."

They didn't attack the Red Ghoul, he, in the midst of madness and memory, attacked them.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cetingira

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2017, 03:43:20 pm »
That makes sense, I just felt it didn't read like that.

How could be the vanguard if he was already there, and much further forward than the Red Ghoul. I can follow Sujara losing it and attacking everyone, but I read it as Guswuran was the aggressor.

Then again, I'm sure Cilculiccas tries to reign in Vippol after he wants to kill the Mysunsai for attacking Sujara.

I think I need to reread again...and again. It reminds me of the Vokalati/Mandate fall out.

Sausuna

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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2017, 03:57:57 pm »
No, it was the Red Ghoul who turned on them.

"Obw Gswuran stepped forward, led his Triune toward the Ishterebinthi, believing it his prerogative and obligation."

He moved forward because the Quya had.  He didn't want to be one-upped.  He believed he should be the van, not them.
Was that why? I thought he moved up because he thought he should be coordinating with the Quya, that he was trying to make contact. Not sure why I got that impression.

@Wolfdrop - Either way, I read it similarly to H, that Sujaranin thought they were his enemy and attacked first.

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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2017, 04:02:08 pm »
Was that why? I thought he moved up because he thought he should be coordinating with the Quya, that he was trying to make contact. Not sure why I got that impression.

@Wolfdrop - Either way, I read it similarly to H, that Sujaranin thought they were his enemy and attacked first.

Yeah, maybe you are right.  In either case, it wasn't to attack though.
I am a warrior of ages, Anasrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cetingira

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2017, 05:18:50 pm »
I've read again and I think I'm with Sausana, I got the impression Guswuran, being arrogant, felt he should be the one to greet the Quya as a sort of envoy.

The immediciacy of Sujara attacking them caught me off guard, it seems clearer now that he's the aggressor.

Vippol only comes to as Sujara falls into the Horde, and wants to avenge him. But he's brought round by Cilculiccas saying not to.

As Vippol advances the Mysunsai step back to show that they had no hand in it, and a repeat of Irsulor is averted, with the Red Ghoul taking the place of Carindusu.

...right?

Though part of me thinks Sujara-nin attacked him because he had the symbol of the Mikka on his robes. While Sujara's actions as a sorcerous mercenary inspired the Mysunsai, the Mikka themselves were formed as a result of his "predations", making me think they were in opposition to him.

He sees the Compass, remembers fighting them and flips, killing Guswuran.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 05:34:47 pm by Wolfdrop »

Monkhound

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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2017, 08:51:02 pm »

Though part of me thinks Sujara-nin attacked him because he had the symbol of the Mikka on his robes. While Sujara's actions as a sorcerous mercenary inspired the Mysunsai, the Mikka themselves were formed as a result of his "predations", making me think they were in opposition to him.

He sees the Compass, remembers fighting them and flips, killing Guswuran.

I got the part where he was surprised that three Halaroi were suddenly far within his wards due to him having lost himself in his rage.
He then instantly recognizes the Compass as a threat, but I missed why he went nuts because of it.
It was clearly because of an association he could still make in his unraveling mind, but I didn't quite figure out why.
The whole passage was rather confusing.
I'd either go for the "He remembered fighting them" (but I find this less likely), or for the "Kill/ Sacrifice the ones you love to remember once more" that we got during the Akka-Nil'Giccas and Oirunas-Oinaral fights.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Crtha

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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2017, 12:06:37 am »
A good example of Bakker's writing at it's murkiest. Like, this didn't need to be so confusing.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2017, 07:30:20 am »
A good example of Bakker's writing at it's murkiest. Like, this didn't need to be so confusing.
War is Confusion. Bakker's 'murkiness' is actually what makes his battle scenes feel so real to me. Bloody tragedy following in the wake of the blind flailing of flawed and blundering humanity. Passion yoked to blindness, bringing ruin.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Crtha

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2017, 07:50:20 am »
Good point Duskweaver. I do think this example was too obtuse and certainly popped me out of the flow on my second read as well as the first while I tried to work out wtf was actually going on. The rest of the battle scenes are extremely engaging and crystal clear compared to this, I felt like had a pretty good idea of the disposition of forces until Ishterberinth suddenly showed up.  And how did they ghost past the Scylvendi anyway?
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 08:29:56 am »
I'm all for a bit of madness and ambiguity, but I like to know wtf is happening too.

Yellow

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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2017, 08:39:43 am »
I'm all for a bit of madness and ambiguity, but I like to know wtf is happening too.

+1
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