[TUC SPOILERS] Thoughts about the overall story, ending etc

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Madness

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« Reply #195 on: July 14, 2017, 11:48:21 am »
I get that everyone is afraid of spoiling those who are waiting for North American release but please feel free to get creative with subject headings - so as not to spoil others - and make specific threads to isolate this, that, or the other thing, rather than mimic the One-Thread Famine at Westeros (while my time here is still limited slightly, Wilshire, I, and others are on watch to make sure that there is no outright spoiling). That's literally the point of this forum - we don't have to restrict ourselves to one thread. Especially as I can't help but think that basically everyone here and on the Forum-That-Is-Dead-To-Me is missing a whole lot of the narrative right in front of their eyes.

Damn my wait for the canon artifact - though, my personal engagement is limited from now until the conclusion of The Second Apocalypse. But I'm very excited to start falsifying through citation ;).
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Madness

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« Reply #196 on: July 14, 2017, 12:00:56 pm »
Oh, and...

Well met to all the new members I've missed in the past week. Welcome to this very unique noosphere that we call the Second Apocalypse. I'm excited to meld with you all so that you can shape my journey.

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #197 on: July 14, 2017, 12:34:57 pm »
(Still trying to get my thoughts to make sense, where do I even start...)
I know there have been many, many posts since then, but I'll address Jackehehe's points from the first post anyway. :)


In general: my main impression of the book comes off as positive - while there were a few things that were mildly disappointing (though that's more a matter of subjectivity) and some loose ends that maybe should have been addressed (I agree with everyone who's said that Bakker left gave us far more mysteries than reveals), I really liked it as a whole.


The ending itself: Very bleak (I thought to myself "well, that's a downer") when reading the last few pages, but definitely thematically appropriate. It's not like it came out of nowhere or anything, I recall many people had predicted this or something like it would happen. But yes, still depressing.

Kellhus' death: I admit I was a bit confused at the time and had to go back and reread that passage. It does seem like the Kellhus greeting the Ordeal was some sort of hologram like it has been suggested. As for him not noticing Kelmomas: it makes sense to me, remember how little attention he had always paid Kelmomas, he had not even noticed his true nature until it was far too late. He thought he had him controlled after taking him and Esmenet away from Momemn and once again underestimated him and his weakness (feelings for Esmenet) caused her to release Kelmomas. Kellhus' blind spots ultimately doomed him, which for me, is a good resolution and ending for his character arc.

Kellhus: good or bad? That is a difficult question. It's not just a black or white kind of morality with him. I think he genuinely wanted to save the world, no matter how many heinous acts it would take, or how many people he would have to sacrifice as pawns to his plans. Ultimately, he thought himself fully capable of handling the threat of the Consult and was brought down by his own weaknesses (see above). I think I'll always see him as a (very) dark grey character in the morality spectrum.

Dûnyain take over the Consult: I was not expecting that. While I was a bit disappointed that Aurang, Aurax, Mekeritrig and Shauriatas were defeated so easily (and the Dûnyain Consult had even killed/broken Shauriatas and Aurax before we even got to see them!), it does fit the theme of the story. If one Dûnyain can take over Eärwa, five of them certainly can take over the Consult. While my first reaction wasn't great, the more I think about it, the more I like this development.

Momemn story arc: It definitely wasn't pointless: it served to flesh out the character of Kelmomas and his relationship to Ajokli as well as his role as a narindar (and we had his interactions with another narindar, too). Plus, there was Esmenet's descent into despair over the loss of her children and the (assumed) betrayal on Maithanet's part, which led to her hating Kellhus for it (more than she could ever hate Kelmomas, even after learning the truth). That subsequently caused her to give Kelmomas the means to free himself and indirectly resulted in Kellhus' death at the end.
(And this arc gave us Thelli, my favourite Anasûrimbor, how could it be pointless? ;))

Kayûtas: I have to mostly agree with Jackehehe here...I thought he was a boring character for the first three books of this series. Nothing distinctive about him (unlike his siblings), he was basically a more human Kellhus, "Kellhus Lite", if you will. :P
While I agree he did have a role as a Kellhus stand-in to Sorweel and later Proyas, and was the tiniest bit more interesting to me by the end, I ultimately came away from the series with (almost) the same impression I had at the beginning. I guess that can be more of a subjective thing, though, as some people out there might like him as a character?
He may be, however, the only one of Kellhus' children left alive for the next series, as it seems possible he survived. Kelmomas, as the No-God, isn't really "alive" anymore (at least not as himself). Serwa likely died at the end or shortly afterwards, given that she had already survived that blast which left her disfigured and covered in burns, and was later struck by the Chorae and lost at least part of an arm.

Malowebi: Again, the wonders of subjectivity. ;) I liked Malowebi's POV, it was a way to have direct access to what was happening with Kellhus when he wasn't close to any other POVs. A Kellhus POV might have given away too much, especially at the end. But again, that's just my opinion, and I didn't even mind the constant cursing of Likaro. (as a side note: I kind of hope that we get to see Likaro himself in the next series, even if briefly)

The Boy: I kept wondering about him when I was about halfway through the book and realized we hadn't seen him make an appearance yet. I presumed it's not random at all and he is being saved for a greater role in the next series, as (mostly?) everyone else seems to think.

Cnaïur: He is always a fascinating character to have around, I also enjoyed every scene he was in. I hadn't realized I had really missed him in this series, even with the scene at the end of TGO. About his confrontation with the No-God, after a quick reread of that scene, it seems like he was possessed by Ajokli? (Or was it Gilgaöl, as some think? Gilgaöl had possessed him before in PON, as I recall...) Not really sure what to say about it, just that I might need to think about it for a longer time.

Achamian: While I have to agree about the Akka/Mimara storyline not having a proper resolution at the end, it did contribute to worldbuilding as people have pointed out. I believe they, along with the Boy, will have more important roles to play later on (though I still wish they'd got to do more).

Serwa: Unlike Kayûtas, it was very much her time in the spotlight in this book, and she did get amazing moments even if there was no followup to the fight with the dragon. I think she had a good conclusion to her arc anyway, going by the assumption she died at the end/not long after.



More thoughts to follow later...probably.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #198 on: July 14, 2017, 12:56:07 pm »
Here we go...
The tale is done.
...
Truth Shines!

Great to have you hear, hope you stick around :) .

I'm starting to get confused here about what people see as ‘no point’. The whole story is built on all the details provided by every character and narrative arc. We get our worldbuilding from character's thoughts and feelings, observations, etc., not (largely) random exposition from omnipotent POVs that just dictate to the reader what the world is.

For example lets use the WLW since you brought it up. Without the WLW, there would be little information Yatwer, on the Gods, on their Agency and timelessness, no exposition on Kelmomas and his (no)god-entangled-ness. It drives all of Kelmomas’ story arc, as well as a huge piece Esmenet’s. Maithanet would rule the 3 seas, probably have defeated Fanayal without Kellhus. Fast forward to the end  and having little Kel end up in the Goldren Room would be extremely contrived, basically just some random child showing up at the end of the story. So remove the WLW, and you removed at least 2 full story arcs, which in turn ruins all the others.

If you take out any single story arc, the story is drastically changed as a whole, and pretty much ruined. This isn’t just a story following Kellhus and his journey from Ishual to Hell and back again. That’s not how a good story is told, and its certainly not why we like TSA to begin with. If this was a mono-arc book, it would very well just be 3 books following a single main character (probably akka or Kellhus).


Let me ask directly then, what is an important story arc that "had a point", and what makes it different than any one that didn't.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 12:57:40 pm by Wilshire »
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #199 on: July 14, 2017, 04:00:07 pm »
The tale is done.

Nooooooo

Besides the fact that he pretty clearly states that there is gonna be sequels (and I think he is actively writing them too?) I don't think Bakker can let go of Second Apocalypse - I am gonna go out on a limb, and assume that the people who read his non-SA novels are almost entirely made of SA fans, so if his writing endevaours are to continue and prosper (to their relative degree, at least), he'll need more Second Apocalypse to keep his fans together
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 04:09:12 pm by Cuttlefish »

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« Reply #200 on: July 14, 2017, 04:15:40 pm »
Cnaïur: He is always a fascinating character to have around, I also enjoyed every scene he was in. I hadn't realized I had really missed him in this series, even with the scene at the end of TGO. About his confrontation with the No-God, after a quick reread of that scene, it seems like he was possessed by Ajokli? (Or was it Gilgaöl, as some think? Gilgaöl had possessed him before in PON, as I recall...) Not really sure what to say about it, just that I might need to think about it for a longer time.

A startling realization I made in this book, is that Cnaiür actually makes sense; his limitless insanity and all. Madness, due to its unpredictable and erratic nature, is the only place where the Dunyain don't hold a true dominion over so, to have any shot against Kellhus, he has to go all the way in. The part where Moenghus tries to reason with him by calling out his inconsistencies and he just keeps hitting him was pitch perfect. One thing Bakker did so well with this whole series is to create characters who are inherently unsympathetic with their villainy, and make them... well, likable? Awesome!

Deustriplo

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« Reply #201 on: July 15, 2017, 01:47:18 am »
Here we go...
The tale is done.
...
Truth Shines!

Great to have you hear, hope you stick around :) .

I'm starting to get confused here about what people see as ‘no point’(...) .

Let me ask directly then, what is an important story arc that "had a point", and what makes it different than any one that didn't.

I will def stick around.  ;)

There is no need to get confused. If there is something very unique about Bakker and what he wrote about in the PoN and TAE series is that reality is a matter of perspective and perception. Good and Evil, Right and Wrong are artificial concepts created by men to bring sense to the darkness that reality really is and so that our restricted minds can appear to function and have a semblance of control.

All I wrote is simply my opinion and how I understood what I read. Is there a right way and a wrong way to interpret what we both read? I doubt it. Especially when much of what was touched upon in these books rested squarely in the realms of metaphysics.

All arcs are important and build to the overall narrative? Maybe. In a sense I understand your point. I personally felt that many arcs were just to fill in pages... Again what did Cnauir really brought to this last series?
A Goddess can hide an assassin from Khellus intellect/powers by having a slave trace mud on his cheeks but her avatar gets destroyed in less than a couple heartbeats by the same character?
You look at the toll exacted by Khellus from everyone in the Three Seas, not least from those closer to him, and he makes a mistake like that with Celmonas? Another Dûnyain? Conditioned Ground and you forget one of your own? You do not dispose of him when you convince Esm that he must die?
He actually has feelings for Esmenet? To the point he goes back to rescue her at a stage that The Ordeal was closing in on the battle he had been preparing and tempering the world for 20 years?
The man who actually rewrites scripture and makes the Men of the Tusk accept/tolerate the Few?
Sorry I don;t see it.
But like I said in my post. What really hooked me on these books was Khellus as a character and maybe I am just disappointed.
But there is no Right or Wrong here in my mind. There is only different points of view.


Another thing that always intrigued me. Why was Esmenet strong enough to carry the Dûnyain's seed to completion so many times when no other seemed to be? Because she coupled with the Ichoroi at some stage?

What is important to a reader in a tale is a matter of perspective only. ;-)

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:55:52 am by Deustriplo »
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Deustriplo

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« Reply #202 on: July 15, 2017, 01:48:56 am »
The tale is done.

Nooooooo

Besides the fact that he pretty clearly states that there is gonna be sequels (and I think he is actively writing them too?) I don't think Bakker can let go of Second Apocalypse - I am gonna go out on a limb, and assume that the people who read his non-SA novels are almost entirely made of SA fans, so if his writing endevaours are to continue and prosper (to their relative degree, at least), he'll need more Second Apocalypse to keep his fans together

I am sorry. I should have been clearer.
The tale is done... For me. ;-)

Truth Shines...
The Logos is without Beginning or End.

generalguy

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« Reply #203 on: July 15, 2017, 02:13:59 pm »
So what was the deal with: https://mobile.twitter.com/bakkerfans/status/837711331138629634/photo/1

I didn't see any mention of the lord torturer Harapior's son anywhere?

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #204 on: July 15, 2017, 02:17:58 pm »
So what was the deal with: https://mobile.twitter.com/bakkerfans/status/837711331138629634/photo/1

I didn't see any mention of the lord torturer Harapior's son anywhere?

That's right! I remembered that reading the book, then forgot it again until you brought it up.

Maybe it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it mention and we both missed it? ???
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #205 on: July 15, 2017, 04:10:15 pm »
Dunno how to actually react to the TUC, fellow second-apocalyptians.

On the one hand, lots of question were not just left unanswered -- but universally tossed aside, we'll possibly never know about them. On the other hand, it's just how the most of reality works and good books always use this flaw as benefit.
On the one hand, I've felt myself robbed of Golgotherrat Consult and in a manner somehow similar to Isterebinth Nonmen -- drooling idiots in a dusty corner, oh my, and with so few possibilities to gaze upon them. On the other hand, Second Apocalypse was always like an awesome encyclopedia of crippled badasses to me, so it's still cool. Also, after TGO I've thought nonmen intact are done, but no, they've made a nice part in the final battle, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Aurang, arise!
On the one hand, I'm completely confused. Mostly because of power-level uncertainty. Is Kellhus still an uber-controlfreak, who knew about everything (Kel's strangeness, Sorweel's godmade face, dunyianization of Consult, Ajokli's plans) and made preemptive measures, using everyone as parts of tTT? Or he's actually reached his limit? Speaking plainly, is Kellhus still a measure of everything or he is not? On the other hand, TUC is not an actual book, but an overgrown second part of TGO+TUC, so I'm betting on the complex re-read.

For now I'll just go & start filling my instagram with appropriate art.
The Second Tiny Ordeal begins.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 04:12:31 pm by Simas Polchias »

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #206 on: July 15, 2017, 04:18:34 pm »
So what was the deal with: https://mobile.twitter.com/bakkerfans/status/837711331138629634/photo/1

I didn't see any mention of the lord torturer Harapior's son anywhere?

That's right! I remembered that reading the book, then forgot it again until you brought it up.

Maybe it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it mention and we both missed it? ???

Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"

It seemed like a domination tactic, I really don't know why it was a teaser

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #207 on: July 15, 2017, 04:21:01 pm »
Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"

It seemed like a domination tactic, I really don't know why it was a teaser

Yes, that's right... That didn't even register in my mind when reading, I guess I was expecting an actual biological son of Harapior to be mentioned/appear, and it would be someone we'd already be familiar with (or the name would be recognizable).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Madness

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« Reply #208 on: July 15, 2017, 05:32:41 pm »
So what was the deal with: https://mobile.twitter.com/bakkerfans/status/837711331138629634/photo/1

I didn't see any mention of the lord torturer Harapior's son anywhere?

That's right! I remembered that reading the book, then forgot it again until you brought it up.

Maybe it was a blink-and-you'll-miss-it mention and we both missed it? ???

Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"

It seemed like a domination tactic, I really don't know why it was a teaser

I did forewarn people that MG's teasers reflected his interpretation of the text. Readers should try coming up with "teasers" as a thought exercise. When you're adamant about not spoiling, it's not easy.
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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #209 on: July 15, 2017, 06:02:44 pm »
Moenghus reminiscies that Harapior told him "you will become my son after this"
Dunno if it's an euphimism of death (nonmen sons mostly died in wombs or battles), a note of kinship building (a 8000 year culture of battling alzheimer with rape and torture), or a sliped out though about surprise butt sex.