Iėva's age?

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: July 04, 2017, 09:42:50 pm »
Yesterday I was flicking through the books searching for a quote to use in my signature, when I happened to glance upon Iėva's birth and death years in the appendices of The White-Luck Warrior. In that book, Achamian has his dream of Nau-Cayūti's supposed death and Iėva is mentioned as "his wife of seven years".
We know Nau-Cayūti's "death" took place in 2140. Therefore, they were married in or around 2133 - and if you look at their birth years, Nau-Cayūti (born 2119) would have been 14 at the time, which is already fairly young, while Iėva (born 2125) would have been only 8 years old... I doubt that this is a mistake (the timeline and related math seems to be pretty consistent throughout this series), but still, eight seems a bit too young even considering that royals might marry at very young ages. Presumably, Celmomas was the one to arrange the marriage, and the main purpose would be, of course, grandchildren to continue his line, but Iėva wouldn't be old enough to have children for quite a few years...
I was left wondering if this could be a situation similar to that of little Lady Ermesande Hayford in A Song of Ice and Fire, who was married off as an infant because she was the last of her line and so her wealth and lands would come into possession of her husband's family. (Completely speculation on my part, but there's no evidence against it either, so that's what I'm choosing to believe for now.)

And yes, maybe I'm just overthinking this small detail, but it kind of makes me see her character in a somewhat new light. You have this "treacherous wife" sacrificing her husband to save her own soul. More understandable if you consider she was only fifteen years old instead of twenty-something?
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2017, 10:42:24 am »
And yes, maybe I'm just overthinking this small detail, but it kind of makes me see her character in a somewhat new light. You have this "treacherous wife" sacrificing her husband to save her own soul. More understandable if you consider she was only fifteen years old instead of twenty-something?

That certainly makes a big difference though.  Being that she was so young, she probably had a pretty rough life, even if she was royalty to begin with.

Consider, married outside her consent at 8, plausibly she could have "flowered" between 10 and 14, but she "dies" at 15.  Pretty abominable by modern standards, but probably not all that uncommon or unheard of in ancient times.

Further though, Nau-Cayūti could well have already been in puberty when married (being 14 at the time), so Iėva could have, in fact, have been used as a sexual object from the outset of the marriage.

So, in the end, you were married away at 8, used as a sexual object, trapped in a loveless relationship, and then to top it off, after such a heaping of indignity which you bear, you are supplanted by a consort?  Who presumably isn't even royalty?  No wonder the Consult was able to turn her...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2017, 11:50:01 am »
And yes, maybe I'm just overthinking this small detail, but it kind of makes me see her character in a somewhat new light. You have this "treacherous wife" sacrificing her husband to save her own soul. More understandable if you consider she was only fifteen years old instead of twenty-something?

That certainly makes a big difference though.  Being that she was so young, she probably had a pretty rough life, even if she was royalty to begin with.

Consider, married outside her consent at 8, plausibly she could have "flowered" between 10 and 14, but she "dies" at 15.  Pretty abominable by modern standards, but probably not all that uncommon or unheard of in ancient times.

Further though, Nau-Cayūti could well have already been in puberty when married (being 14 at the time), so Iėva could have, in fact, have been used as a sexual object from the outset of the marriage.

So, in the end, you were married away at 8, used as a sexual object, trapped in a loveless relationship, and then to top it off, after such a heaping of indignity which you bear, you are supplanted by a consort?  Who presumably isn't even royalty?  No wonder the Consult was able to turn her...

Yup, that all checks out.

Great find with the timeline. Her being married at 8 really adds an interesting layer to their story.

Its always great to see what bits are hidden even after all this time. If you haven't done a re-read yet I'd recommend it - if you think this is cool, a reread will blow your mind :).

One of the other conditions of possibility.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2017, 12:01:32 pm »
That certainly makes a big difference though.  Being that she was so young, she probably had a pretty rough life, even if she was royalty to begin with.

Consider, married outside her consent at 8, plausibly she could have "flowered" between 10 and 14, but she "dies" at 15.  Pretty abominable by modern standards, but probably not all that uncommon or unheard of in ancient times.

Further though, Nau-Cayūti could well have already been in puberty when married (being 14 at the time), so Iėva could have, in fact, have been used as a sexual object from the outset of the marriage.

So, in the end, you were married away at 8, used as a sexual object, trapped in a loveless relationship, and then to top it off, after such a heaping of indignity which you bear, you are supplanted by a consort?  Who presumably isn't even royalty?  No wonder the Consult was able to turn her...

Actually, the appendices have her death date as 2146, 6 years after Nau-Cayūti's, which admittedly surprised me - if everyone knew she was responsible for his "death", it seems strange that there would have been no swift repercussions. Especially considering how much Celmomas loved his son, and that he also outlived him by several years, so would have been around to punish Iėva.
I suppose it's possible she wasn't executed but rather imprisoned for the rest of her life? Still, she died young in any case, whether she was 15 or 21.

I figured that it was possible she was forced to consummate the marriage right at the beginning, considering the sort of world they live in (I was just trying not to think too much about it, ugh). From a practical standpoint, it would have been a better choice for Nau-Cayūti to wait until she was old enough to bear children safely, being that would be the main purpose of the marriage. I guess he could always remarry if Iėva died from complications during pregnancy or in childbirth, though.
Or maybe he did wait - and that was when he took Aulisi as a lover? One more reason for Iėva to resent her.

I just feel sorry for her after figuring out her age and thinking a bit about it, because it does change her circumstances. You are right in that it would have been so easy for the Consult to get her to cooperate in light of all this.


Yup, that all checks out.

Great find with the timeline. Her being married at 8 really adds an interesting layer to their story.

Its always great to see what bits are hidden even after all this time. If you haven't done a re-read yet I'd recommend it - if you think this is cool, a reread will blow your mind :).

It really does, even if it makes her life all the more depressing. The "wonders" of living in Eärwa!

My re-read is currently on hold (even though I'm definitely still planning on doing it) for work reasons...sadly, that probably means I won't be able to get to it before reading The Unholy Consult, but August is still a good month for the discovery of brand new details. ;)
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2017, 12:45:28 pm »
I figured that it was possible she was forced to consummate the marriage right at the beginning, considering the sort of world they live in (I was just trying not to think too much about it, ugh). From a practical standpoint, it would have been a better choice for Nau-Cayūti to wait until she was old enough to bear children safely, being that would be the main purpose of the marriage. I guess he could always remarry if Iėva died from complications during pregnancy or in childbirth, though.
Or maybe he did wait - and that was when he took Aulisi as a lover? One more reason for Iėva to resent her.

I just feel sorry for her after figuring out her age and thinking a bit about it, because it does change her circumstances. You are right in that it would have been so easy for the Consult to get her to cooperate in light of all this.

Well, if she hadn't hit puberty yet, there is little "risk" involved with consummating the marriage.  Of course, that might well have not been Nau's desire, but rather a forced reality of needing to "cement" the alliance or whatever reason they had for marrying them to each other.  That one scene we see of them together though, that certainly does not seem like the first time they lay together, even though that is 7 years later after all.  Again, plausibly not of either of their will's though.

But that is a good point, Nau may well have taken to Aulisi because she was closer in age to him, in addition to simply being more attracted/loving her.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2017, 01:32:18 pm »
Well, if she hadn't hit puberty yet, there is little "risk" involved with consummating the marriage.  Of course, that might well have not been Nau's desire, but rather a forced reality of needing to "cement" the alliance or whatever reason they had for marrying them to each other.  That one scene we see of them together though, that certainly does not seem like the first time they lay together, even though that is 7 years later after all.  Again, plausibly not of either of their will's though.

But that is a good point, Nau may well have taken to Aulisi because she was closer in age to him, in addition to simply being more attracted/loving her.

My last post might have been a bit unclear - by the risk involved, I meant having Iėva becoming pregnant and giving birth at a very young age, say 12-13, which would result in a much higher chance of having her and/or the child die, or not even being able to carry a pregnancy to term.
But like you said, it does seem likely that the marriage was consummated a while before Nau-Cayūti's "death", though we cannot know for sure when, maybe it had been a few years, maybe more. My Aulisi theory is still possible in this case, with Nau-Cayūti favouring her over Iėva because there was a genuine romantic and sexual attraction there, while the marriage to Iėva would be more of a duty.
I do wonder if the lack of children resulting from the marriage (well, as far as we know) were a result of complications with pregnancy/birth (again, probably due to her young age) or if maybe Iėva herself was doing something to prevent it? (maybe unlikely, but then again, just more speculation on my part)
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2017, 02:10:31 pm »
My last post might have been a bit unclear - by the risk involved, I meant having Iėva becoming pregnant and giving birth at a very young age, say 12-13, which would result in a much higher chance of having her and/or the child die, or not even being able to carry a pregnancy to term.
But like you said, it does seem likely that the marriage was consummated a while before Nau-Cayūti's "death", though we cannot know for sure when, maybe it had been a few years, maybe more. My Aulisi theory is still possible in this case, with Nau-Cayūti favouring her over Iėva because there was a genuine romantic and sexual attraction there, while the marriage to Iėva would be more of a duty.

I see, yeah, I misunderstood what you were getting at, but that makes sense.  I have little doubt that they were forced to consummate the marriage and perhaps, in doing so, that is the sin that Iėva was seeking to circumvent, via the Consult?  It's hard to imagine one so young having a litany of deep sins...although it is possible.

It's also possible that once she had flowered, possibly other measures were taken to avoid such an early pregnancy.  That could well be more on the ledger of "sins" she sought reprieve from.  We really don't know much about such things on Eärwa, but there could well be something of a "puritanical" culture out there, somewhere, of which she could well have been raised in.

I do wonder if the lack of children resulting from the marriage (well, as far as we know) were a result of complications with pregnancy/birth (again, probably due to her young age) or if maybe Iėva herself was doing something to prevent it? (maybe unlikely, but then again, just more speculation on my part)

She could well have taken to other measures to avoid the problem all together.  "Morning after" contraception existed in ancient times, of course of various effectiveness.  Abortion could well be another of her "sins."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2017, 02:27:44 pm »
Contraception of any kind is seen as equivalent to abortion in plenty of cultures
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2017, 02:34:35 pm »
Contraception of any kind is seen as equivalent to abortion in plenty of cultures

Indeed, good point that I failed to make clear, that is the case even here in the US.  Again, her motivation could well have been self-preservation and yet still been "sinful."  I do wonder how and why she died 6 years later though...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2017, 02:36:39 pm »
Could be the suspicion of her complicity in NC's death only came later, after the second round of poisoning took place with the other victim.
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2017, 03:07:51 pm »
Could be the suspicion of her complicity in NC's death only came later, after the second round of poisoning took place with the other victim.

Plausible, but that was in 2142, so she lived another 4 years after.

2146 also marks Celmomas' death and the defeat at the Fields of Eleneöt.  Possibly she was there as well, perhaps as a part of some royal escort?  Or, perhaps she realized she was forsaken by the Consult and the remaining Anasūrimbor and killed herself?  That seems unlikely, given that she knew she was damned though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2017, 03:20:28 pm »
I see, yeah, I misunderstood what you were getting at, but that makes sense.  I have little doubt that they were forced to consummate the marriage and perhaps, in doing so, that is the sin that Iėva was seeking to circumvent, via the Consult?  It's hard to imagine one so young having a litany of deep sins...although it is possible.

It's also possible that once she had flowered, possibly other measures were taken to avoid such an early pregnancy.  That could well be more on the ledger of "sins" she sought reprieve from.  We really don't know much about such things on Eärwa, but there could well be something of a "puritanical" culture out there, somewhere, of which she could well have been raised in.

She could well have taken to other measures to avoid the problem all together.  "Morning after" contraception existed in ancient times, of course of various effectiveness.  Abortion could well be another of her "sins."

Contraception of any kind is seen as equivalent to abortion in plenty of cultures

I thought of those possibilities, but I kept wondering if it wouldn't be fairly difficult for her to have access to any of those, seeing as she was a child bride in the court of her husband's family, and presumably would have had few allies, not to mention someone who could help with actively preventing the birth of any children of royal blood (which might qualify as treason?). But she could have indeed have had someone to supply her with some kind of contraceptive or abortifacient, maybe even an agent of the Consult later on?
Those could in fact be her "sins" (or some of them), I hadn't thought of that. Abortion or something which was seen like abortion would likely qualify as enough to damn her in Eärwa.


I do wonder how and why she died 6 years later though...

Could be the suspicion of her complicity in NC's death only came later, after the second round of poisoning took place with the other victim.

You're right, Somnambulist, we might be biased by the fact it's widely known she poisoned him 2000+ years after the fact. Who knows if she'd have even been suspected of anything at the time, it might be a case of it becoming a theory most historians believed to be true an unknown number of years after it took place.
I'm also very curious about her death 6 years later, that probably lends credence to the possibility no one suspected her of murder right away (unless she was imprisoned instead of executed like I theorised before). I wonder if the Consult had something to do with it...


Plausible, but that was in 2142, so she lived another 4 years after.

2146 also marks Celmomas' death and the defeat at the Fields of Eleneöt.  Possibly she was there as well, perhaps as a part of some royal escort?  Or, perhaps she realized she was forsaken by the Consult and the remaining Anasūrimbor and killed herself?  That seems unlikely, given that she knew she was damned though.

That's right, so that would be another possibility.
I could see her committing suicide if she had some realization there was no way to escape her damnation after all, and was overwhelmed by despair.
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2017, 04:53:11 pm »
I thought of those possibilities, but I kept wondering if it wouldn't be fairly difficult for her to have access to any of those, seeing as she was a child bride in the court of her husband's family, and presumably would have had few allies, not to mention someone who could help with actively preventing the birth of any children of royal blood (which might qualify as treason?). But she could have indeed have had someone to supply her with some kind of contraceptive or abortifacient, maybe even an agent of the Consult later on?
Those could in fact be her "sins" (or some of them), I hadn't thought of that. Abortion or something which was seen like abortion would likely qualify as enough to damn her in Eärwa.

It would probably be difficult, but probably not impossible, given she might have come to the marriage with her own lady-in-waiting, or some other servants, who might have felt a greater loyalty to her than to the Anasūrimbor house.  Presumably, as an 8 year old, you would think she had some kind of supervision.  Even a pretty advanced 8 year old, I would think, would have someone on hand most of the time, given she was not with her parents.

It's not too implausible that the marriage was done to cement some alliance with a hostile or rival house.  Those servants might well have still had some level of emnity toward the Anasūrimbors and had further reason to sabotage the establishment of an heir.  Of course, there also is the implausible "ancient skin-spies" idea too.

You're right, Somnambulist, we might be biased by the fact it's widely known she poisoned him 2000+ years after the fact. Who knows if she'd have even been suspected of anything at the time, it might be a case of it becoming a theory most historians believed to be true an unknown number of years after it took place.
I'm also very curious about her death 6 years later, that probably lends credence to the possibility no one suspected her of murder right away (unless she was imprisoned instead of executed like I theorised before). I wonder if the Consult had something to do with it...

She could, of course, have been set up the whole time.  Lured to sin, sin to escape sin, then abandoned by the Consult anyway.


That's right, so that would be another possibility.
I could see her committing suicide if she had some realization there was no way to escape her damnation after all, and was overwhelmed by despair.

Yeah, one could die of despondency really, so that is distinctly possible, given everything that happens in 2146.  Perhaps the realization that deliverance was simply never going to come was just too much...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2017, 06:51:54 pm »
It would probably be difficult, but probably not impossible, given she might have come to the marriage with her own lady-in-waiting, or some other servants, who might have felt a greater loyalty to her than to the Anasūrimbor house.  Presumably, as an 8 year old, you would think she had some kind of supervision.  Even a pretty advanced 8 year old, I would think, would have someone on hand most of the time, given she was not with her parents.

It's not too implausible that the marriage was done to cement some alliance with a hostile or rival house.  Those servants might well have still had some level of emnity toward the Anasūrimbors and had further reason to sabotage the establishment of an heir.  Of course, there also is the implausible "ancient skin-spies" idea too.

Could be, I suppose, though out of the possibilities you pointed out, loyal servants are indeed more likely than proto-skin spies. Other agents of the Consult could still be possible, I guess.
I wonder which family she might have come from, but I can't remember if we know enough about the important royals and nobles of that time period to even be able to make a guess.
On the Anasūrimbor line - do we know for sure if Nau-Cayūti was Celmomas' direct heir, or is there still that question regarding Ganrelka's paternity? It would still have been important for Nau-Cayūti and Iėva to produce an heir if Ganrelka was Celmomas' elder son, though not as much...


She could, of course, have been set up the whole time.  Lured to sin, sin to escape sin, then abandoned by the Consult anyway.

That just makes the whole thing more tragic in its entirety, but (in my opinion) that's just another point in favour of the complexity and hidden layers and details of this series.
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2017, 10:52:21 am »
Could be, I suppose, though out of the possibilities you pointed out, loyal servants are indeed more likely than proto-skin spies. Other agents of the Consult could still be possible, I guess.
I wonder which family she might have come from, but I can't remember if we know enough about the important royals and nobles of that time period to even be able to make a guess.

Sure.  I just love to sometimes evoke an "ancient skin-spies" call, from time to time.  It's fun to sometimes say, "not saying it was skin-spies, but..."

On the Anasūrimbor line - do we know for sure if Nau-Cayūti was Celmomas' direct heir, or is there still that question regarding Ganrelka's paternity? It would still have been important for Nau-Cayūti and Iėva to produce an heir if Ganrelka was Celmomas' elder son, though not as much...

Well, recall, the rumors of the time say that Nau might have actually been Seswatha's son...

That just makes the whole thing more tragic in its entirety, but (in my opinion) that's just another point in favour of the complexity and hidden layers and details of this series.

It certainly puts Iėva in a different light, at the very least.  Yet another victim making victims...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 11:04:56 am by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira