[TUC Spoilers] Sorweel

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H

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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2017, 05:22:45 pm »
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.

Yeah, that was my interpretation too.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Spooky

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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2017, 08:09:19 pm »
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.

Saving from hell to devour him. That's exactly what a mother goddess (who doesn't feed on terror/pain) would desire to induce in you for maximum feasting.  Just as Ajolki feasted on Kellhus from the delicious heights of his fall, so did Yatwer consume her tool,and the power applied to it, by eating the soul.

Hiro

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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2017, 08:11:21 pm »
I took it as that Yatwer saved Sorweel from hell. Which makes Sorweel the third non damned character after Mim and Esmi.

Saving from hell to devour him. That's exactly what a mother goddess (who doesn't feed on terror/pain) would desire to induce in you for maximum feasting.  Just as Ajolki feasted on Kellhus from the delicious heights of his fall, so did Yatwer consume her tool,and the power applied to it, by eating the soul.

Oh no! It felt like such a nice ending for Sorweel...  :o


Mystery denotes darkness

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2017, 01:44:52 am »
Whilst on the topic of Sorweel's fate....

Being redeemed means you get to go spend your afterlife with whatever pious ancestors you had in some pocket dimension, or get taken to a God's dimension. Bakker has covered that in answer to questions as far back as during the writing of Prince of Nothing.

Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.
It's just not widely accepted by readers that the hundred are responsible for redemption for whatever reason. Now there is further clarity provided by actual examples and many readers still seem to prefer to stick with the Fanim perspective.  ::)

Anyway, one of the Names who is a casualty during TUC is mentioned as being taken up by Gilgaol. Which is interesting because this is after the Meat frenzy.
Quote
Thane Sosering Rauchurl was felled from the heights of Gwergiruh. He was grinning to his compatriots when the missile dropped from the void of his left, piercing his cheek, breaking his teeth, and pitching him headlong into the frenzied threshing below. Death came spiralling down ...

Bore him wondering to the brace of Gilgaöl.

[EDIT Madness: For link to quote thread ;).]
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 12:26:43 pm by Madness »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Walter

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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2017, 03:12:07 am »
I definitely think that Psatma and Sorweel went to Yatwer's personal zone.  I just tend to doubt that that zone is anything like the paradise they were hoping for.  Cue the lines about the sighs of the sinners and the screams of the damned being indistinguishable if you like, or Psatma's admission that Yatwer was a demon.

It may be better than the Hells, or it may not.  One big Ciphrang vs. feasting thousands.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2017, 04:41:29 am »
Cue the lines about the sighs of the sinners and the screams of the damned being indistinguishable if you like, or Psatma's admission that Yatwer was a demon.

Context matters a lot.  For instance, Psatma was arguing with a priest of Fane.

Certainly, gods and ciphrang are of a type, bearing broad similarities - but then so are humans and baser beasts. 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 10:11:45 am by Cüréthañ »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

themerchant

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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2017, 05:37:11 am »
nah some one went into Gilgoals arms as well, during a battle scene, something strikes him and it says gilgaol gathers him up. So he was saved as well.

A random noble in battle not a main character though. I thought adding in whether they were saved or damned after some deaths an extra touch :)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 05:38:58 am by themerchant »

Hiro

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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2017, 09:32:38 am »
nah some one went into Gilgoals arms as well, during a battle scene, something strikes him and it says gilgaol gathers him up. So he was saved as well.

A random noble in battle not a main character though. I thought adding in whether they were saved or damned after some deaths an extra touch :)

That be Mr Rauchurl.

Mentioned earlier in this thread as well, sorry.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 09:35:35 am by Hiro »
Mystery denotes darkness

Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2017, 12:23:49 pm »
Whilst on the topic of Sorweel's fate....

Being redeemed means you get to go spend your afterlife with whatever pious ancestors you had in some pocket dimension, or get taken to a God's dimension. Bakker has covered that in answer to questions as far back as during the writing of Prince of Nothing.

Given this overarching indeterminacy, there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.
It's just not widely accepted by readers that the hundred are responsible for redemption for whatever reason. Now there is further clarity provided by actual examples and many readers still seem to prefer to stick with the Fanim perspective.  ::)

Anyway, one of the Names who is a casualty during TUC is mentioned as being taken up by Gilgaol. Which is interesting because this is after the Meat frenzy.
Quote
Thane Sosering Rauchurl was felled from the heights of Gwergiruh. He was grinning to his compatriots when the missile dropped from the void of his left, piercing his cheek, breaking his teeth, and pitching him headlong into the frenzied threshing below. Death came spiralling down ...

Bore him wondering to the brace of Gilgaöl.

[EDIT Madness: For link to quote thread ;).]

Great quote from Bakker, btw (why didn't you link the article though ;) [EDIT Madness: 'Cause I just happened to be here and I'm tricksty like that]).

"Redemption" is the tricky bit there. While plenty believe the Fanim, those that accept that Gods do their own work still contend with the idea that being captured by a god might not be such a good thing. Psatma, I think, mentions that all those that pray to her and end up in her realm still end up tortured for eternity (excepting those few, few souls like herself who are truly chosen).
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 12:27:44 pm by Madness »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2017, 11:55:48 am »
Realized I haven't posted in this thread yet, so here it goes.
I really liked Sorweel, it was so enjoyable to have a new character around that we could sort of relate to (not to his personal circumstances, but in the way he was a regular human among Dûnyain, half-Dûnyain, sorcerers, witches and people with unique supernatural powers). I remember thinking "oh no" when his POV started switching to White-Luck Warrior mode, and sure enough, that did not end well (so sad, especially after his reunion with poor, also-doomed Zsoronga, which was another character I liked).
At least he did seem to be headed for a better afterlife than the one awaiting the vast majority of characters, so yes, there's that. I'm currently choosing to believe that whatever awaits him in the Yatwer corner of afterlife can't be worse than hell.
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2017, 08:06:50 pm »
I really liked Sorweel, it was so enjoyable to have a new character around that we could sort of relate to (not to his personal circumstances, but in the way he was a regular human among Dûnyain, half-Dûnyain, sorcerers, witches and people with unique supernatural powers). I remember thinking "oh no" when his POV started switching to White-Luck Warrior mode, and sure enough, that did not end well (so sad, especially after his reunion with poor, also-doomed Zsoronga, which was another character I liked).

I agree.  He was relatable.  I think he was a subversion of a stock fantasy character - teenage doofus from the back of beyond, gets swept up into vast events, is chosen by a god, goes on a journey to a hidden magical place, learns ancient secrets, gets stuck into a beautiful princess.  But in the end this all turns out to be relatively pointless
Sez who?
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2017, 08:11:51 pm »
I agree.  He was relatable.  I think he was a subversion of a stock fantasy character - teenage doofus from the back of beyond, gets swept up into vast events, is chosen by a god, goes on a journey to a hidden magical place, learns ancient secrets, gets stuck into a beautiful princess.  But in the end this all turns out to be relatively pointless

I'd bet you are probably correct, and you left out, defeats evil, lives happily ever after.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 08:33:09 pm »
I agree.  He was relatable.  I think he was a subversion of a stock fantasy character - teenage doofus from the back of beyond, gets swept up into vast events, is chosen by a god, goes on a journey to a hidden magical place, learns ancient secrets, gets stuck into a beautiful princess.  But in the end this all turns out to be relatively pointless

I'd bet you are probably correct, and you left out, defeats evil, lives happily ever after.

That's because it didn't happen. Instead he gets killed by Stewie Griffin ;)
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« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 08:42:54 pm »
Sorweel is the most "regular human" character in the series; I found that the only part of him that felt Bakkerian was his almost comical levels of lust (I laughed out loud when he got aroused from Serwa looking at a pouch on his belt, because it was close to his crotch). Which makes him, imo, uniquely likable - to cut it short, he was a decent guy. Alas, Earwa is not the place for decent people, and men are playthings to demons...

Also, I think I'd have enjoyed him trying to survive through the Second Apocalypse and No-God's resurrection. I wish he wasn't dead.

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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2017, 02:35:44 pm »
I really like Sorweel's story. It's a great coming of age story across the four books and distinctly Bakker.
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