[TUC Spoilers] (or maybe not) - The Daimos

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Yellow

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« on: July 07, 2017, 11:17:44 am »
Ok, what do we know about the Daimos? It's not really been described in any detail, from what I can tell. We see a few things it gets used for throughout the 7 books, but I have no real feel for how it works. You could say the same about the Aporos (apart from that it's about contradictions), but I don't see that as playing a big role in the series.

Can anyone enlighten me?

I guess if people want to refer to...

(click to show/hide)

...they should probably use spoiler tags.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2017, 04:29:27 pm »
The best we've got about it are probably from Iyokus.

  • Something about knowing a Ciphrang's name allows you to summon it
  • Diamos seems to be your typical D&D summoning mechanism - Etch a protective circle using whatever various techniques that make you safe, etch a summoning circle in a big room, call monster, forcibly dragging it into the human world. From there, some kind of binding of it to your soul that sort of prevents it from eating you. You give it a task, it does it, you send it back.
  • Additional layer, Ciphrang don't appreciate being summoned (typical), but they seek out your soul when you die and  torture you for eternity.
  • If whatever link is weak, the Ciphrang and eat your soul via said link.
  • Also, there appears to be a limit of 1 Ciphrang per summoner? Probably not a hard limit, but a soft limit for the number a human can reasonably stop from killing them immediate at one time. Kellhus may have found a way to make it safer.
  • The Scarlet Spires are allegedly the only ones that practice this branch of Sorcery.


Aporos is a dead branch of magic that, imo, functioned similarly to the other gnostic magery, except that the end result stops other magic. In my head, it makes sense to me that an aporatic practitioner could practice no other forms of sorcery.
Keep in mind during that Nonman times, there were many branches of sorcery beyond just Cants and Wards.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 04:35:54 pm by Wilshire »
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Asmodeus van Yakshas

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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2017, 10:04:08 pm »
There also seems to be an element of necromancy to the Daimos. Kellhus used the Daimos when he decapitated Malowebi and preserved the head in a concious state.

themerchant

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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 01:10:22 am »
Don't think there is a limit, Iyokus seems to command 3 of them in TTT. We get his voice through Zioz, but the other two react to his commands as well.

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2017, 05:40:34 pm »
There also seems to be an element of necromancy to the Daimos. Kellhus used the Daimos when he decapitated Malowebi and preserved the head in a concious state.
Welcome to the forum, and good point.

Don't think there is a limit, Iyokus seems to command 3 of them in TTT. We get his voice through Zioz, but the other two react to his commands as well.
Right, forgot about that.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2017, 09:53:04 pm »
In the glossary it's refered to as Noömancy.
'Noos' is from the greek, for mind.

Baker has revealed an interest in the noosphere before.

noosphere
ˈnəʊəsfɪə
noun
noun: noosphere; plural noun: noospheres

a postulated sphere or stage of evolutionary development dominated by consciousness, the mind, and interpersonal relationships.
"creatures evolve: a new biosphere emerges, and with it a new noosphere"

Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Elju

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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2017, 06:46:25 pm »
This is slightly off topic, but my question is related to the Daimos so it seems appropriate to post here:

I may have read these passages too quickly but it seemed like
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Walter

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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 06:58:00 pm »
No, Kellhus was possessed by Ajokli, this daemon was, I think Kakliol?  Big time Ciphrang, clearly, but not on the level of the Hundred.

themerchant

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 07:15:37 pm »
yeah as soon as it got to the arc, it became whole again probably due to the nearness of hell there as it's the ultimate topoi.

Same happened with Kellhus is my guess when he stepped into the portal , Ajokli took over. Kellhus was already using dog powers at the last whelming, levitating without use of sorcery etc.

Elju

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 09:02:19 pm »
I was thinking that maybe the lesser Ciphrang was impersonating Ajokli and that maybe everyone misunderstood what was possessing Kelhus.

If not, those passages seem odd (if I'm remembering them correctly). Why is it significant that a Ciphrang snuffed Ioykus? Does that demon show up again later?

profgrape

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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2017, 09:29:55 pm »
I don't have my ARC anymore but when I first read the section with the Ciphrang I was convinced that the "Reaper of Souls" was Gilgaol.

MSJ

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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2017, 04:30:47 am »
I was thinking that maybe the lesser Ciphrang was impersonating Ajokli and that maybe everyone misunderstood what was possessing Kelhus.

If not, those passages seem odd (if I'm remembering them correctly). Why is it significant that a Ciphrang snuffed Ioykus? Does that demon show up again later?

Because, the Ciphrang is summoned against his will and doesn't particularly like being outside The Outside. So, he kills Iyokus when he gets the chance. I think the one in TTT wanted to kill him also. And being near such a huge Topos kinda broke the chains from Iyokus, is how I took it.
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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2017, 02:57:35 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Asmodeus van Yakshas.

On topic, Kalakiol (sp?) is a cipher for what happens later with Kellhus.

I'm fairly sure this is one of the more serious misreadings concerning around the events of Kellhus' trip to the Court of Sil. In my opinion, a completely different version of events falls out of attributing all dialogue by Kellhus in the Golden Room to Ajokli, up to and including Kelmomas' interruption of Ajokli's God-Mode.
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greenshift

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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2017, 05:31:17 pm »
Madness's post hit on an something that I had been wondering about (enough so that I finally registered to post).

After the Ajokli reveal with Kellhus I immediately reconsidered his dialogue with that in mind. To me it was clear that the "descending as a hunger" comment was how Ajokli perceived himself through the Inverse Fire, not Kellhus. That fits extremely well with how we've seen Ajokli described previously. As far as I'm concerned we don't know what Kellhus himself would see when looking into the IF. It seems a common opinion on this forum to attribute the above to Kellhus, but I feel that is mistaken and I've wondered why I haven't seen the Ajokli interpretation pushed more often.

And I'm probably getting a little off-topic (apologies), but I'm also curious if Kelmomas happened to look into the IF while he was in the Golden room and what he would see if he did. Presumably he wouldn't be affected the same as others? Considering how the No-God is invisible to the Outside, he wouldn't see himself suffering damnation, correct? If not, then what would he see? Also, would Samarmas still inhabiting Kelmomas change this somehow? If there are two souls in a body then what would that person see in the IF (especially if one of the two is the No-God)? Not sure if we'll ever see this one answered or if its even relevant, just something I was debating with myself.

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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2017, 05:49:48 pm »
Madness's post hit on an something that I had been wondering about (enough so that I finally registered to post).

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, greenshift :).

After the Ajokli reveal with Kellhus I immediately reconsidered his dialogue with that in mind. To me it was clear that the "descending as a hunger" comment was how Ajokli perceived himself through the Inverse Fire, not Kellhus. That fits extremely well with how we've seen Ajokli described previously. As far as I'm concerned we don't know what Kellhus himself would see when looking into the IF. It seems a common opinion on this forum to attribute the above to Kellhus, but I feel that is mistaken and I've wondered why I haven't seen the Ajokli interpretation pushed more often.

People are fixated on Kellhus. But yeah, I really do think it's very interesting to reread that section as Ajokli speaking. I will have more thoughts when I read the canon artifact so I can quote accurately.

And I'm probably getting a little off-topic (apologies), but I'm also curious if Kelmomas happened to look into the IF while he was in the Golden room and what he would see if he did. Presumably he wouldn't be affected the same as others? Considering how the No-God is invisible to the Outside, he wouldn't see himself suffering damnation, correct? If not, then what would he see? Also, would Samarmas still inhabiting Kelmomas change this somehow? If there are two souls in a body then what would that person see in the IF (especially if one of the two is the No-God)? Not sure if we'll ever see this one answered or if its even relevant, just something I was debating with myself.

Not something I've seen asked but a very interesting question. Maybe he saw himself, maybe Samarmus was inhabiting the body at the time.

That's another thing I'm very interested in rereading TAE with in mind - when is it Samarmas and when is it Kelmomas?
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