[TLEILAXU]

From what I have seen in the forum so far, the untrained Dûnyain Boy will be taught: Meta-Psûkhe,  Meta-Gnosis, Meta-Daimos, he will outsmart the 4 Dûnyain, will save the world, will destroy the Consult and the Horde completely and will solve the Ozone problem.

No Meta-Anagogis? I have no idea what it'd be like, but it must be something cool.

[ThoughtsOfThelli]

From what I have seen in the forum so far, the untrained Dûnyain Boy will be taught: Meta-Psûkhe, Meta-Gnosis, Meta-Daimos, he will outsmart the 4 Dûnyain, will save the world, will destroy the Consult and the Horde completely and will solve the Ozone problem.

All hail Crabicus, our saviour! Our salvation!

But seriously, with Meppa still being alive and the precedent of Moënghus the Elder, it's not super implausible that the Psûkhe would come back into the picture.

[Woden]

Meta-daimos, slaving gods instead of demons. Awesome.

[Khaine]

I also agree we need more psukhe.

I feel there is lots of potential to be explored there.

Maybe a combo of psukhe and gnosis will be able to perform feats no one thought.

Or maybe psukhe can harm the No-God? There was no psukhe during the First Apocalypse and no protection against it was ever thought. Obviously Chorae protect against psukhic (?) magic but maybe it can perform tricks that can bypass that.

Also now the sarcophagus has no chorae, which means the No-God can be vulnerable to magic. Which means Quya magic with lots of meta-gnosis might be able to pull the trick.

Secretly I hope that Achamian in his old age will be able to act as Seswatha's reincarnation and despite his obvious flaws act as the catalyst that brings together the different forces required to defeat the No-God.

 

[Duskweaver]

I think the most interesting thing about the Psuke is that it works even though Fane's metaphysics was apparently, in Bakker's words, "the most wrong" of all the systems espoused across Earwa.

[SmilerLoki]

I think the most interesting thing about the Psuke is that it works even though Fane's metaphysics was apparently, in Bakker's words, "the most wrong" of all the systems espoused across Earwa.

Psukhe might not be based on Fanimry metaphysics at all. Fane could've just been in the right circumstances to discover it, subsequently completely misinterpreting or shoehorning it into his worldview.

Right now, for me, Psukhe is pretty much explained by the notion of using emotions to convey meaning. It's like writing a book, only without actually writing it. It's an idea, a feeling, and it's perfect. An attempt to put this idea, this perfection, into words would inevitably soil it. It's just for you, shining before you mind's eye. You know it, you feel it, it's real for you without speaking, and so, in Earwa, it happens.

This also ties in to Anagogic sorcery imitating literature (basically, or the art of words in general) or Iswazi imitating sculpture. And there is the whole dichotomy of art and science in Earwan sorcery, with Gnosis being science.

[H]

Indeed, the Psûkhe existed before Fane by Bakker's own admission.  I had a hunch that Fane was distinctly wrong from early on, especially once we knew that the Psûkhe was not Divine (even if it mimics the effect).  I think what Bakker is getting at is that the Solitary God is not a manifest God.  While the Hundred are intercessional in Eärwa, the Solitary God is no where to be seen, or heard, or felt, mainly because there is no actual Solitary God.  The Solitary God is something of a "unity concept," an approximation of the God of Gods would be, were it not fractured into "a million warring splinters."

[Sausuna]

I also agree we need more psukhe.

I feel there is lots of potential to be explored there.

Maybe a combo of psukhe and gnosis will be able to perform feats no one thought.

Or maybe psukhe can harm the No-God? There was no psukhe during the First Apocalypse and no protection against it was ever thought. Obviously Chorae protect against psukhic (?) magic but maybe it can perform tricks that can bypass that.

Also now the sarcophagus has no chorae, which means the No-God can be vulnerable to magic. Which means Quya magic with lots of meta-gnosis might be able to pull the trick.

Secretly I hope that Achamian in his old age will be able to act as Seswatha's reincarnation and despite his obvious flaws act as the catalyst that brings together the different forces required to defeat the No-God.

Psukhe always did seem to have a lot of interesting details to it. Didn't someone make note (maybe I'm off on this) that the No-God's whirlwind probably has chorae rolling around it, considering it swept through a massive battlefield where Scranc, Bashrag, and Men were all tossing them around like party favors?

On this note, I kept wondering if the Heron Spear was unique in how powerful it was (being able to hurt the No-God) or if the new spear lost in the most recent events would be sufficient.

[Madness]

I think the most interesting thing about the Psuke is that it works even though Fane's metaphysics was apparently, in Bakker's words, "the most wrong" of all the systems espoused across Earwa.

"Of the most wrong" as it was relayed to me - though I have a recording yet to listen to. I had to step out to meet someone for about the first half hour or more of the informal Q&A Saturday afternoon.

Didn't someone make note (maybe I'm off on this) that the No-God's whirlwind probably has chorae rolling around it, considering it swept through a massive battlefield where Scranc, Bashrag, and Men were all tossing them around like party favors?

Indeed. And I've put forth that maybe the No-God 2.0 doesn't have Chorae because Chorae were a Macgyver solution by Shauriatas in the No-God 1.0 and the Mutilated figured out how to do without.

[Sausuna]

I think the most interesting thing about the Psuke is that it works even though Fane's metaphysics was apparently, in Bakker's words, "the most wrong" of all the systems espoused across Earwa.

"Of the most wrong" as it was relayed to me - though I have a recording yet to listen to. I had to step out to meet someone for about the first half hour or more of the informal Q&A Saturday afternoon.

Didn't someone make note (maybe I'm off on this) that the No-God's whirlwind probably has chorae rolling around it, considering it swept through a massive battlefield where Scranc, Bashrag, and Men were all tossing them around like party favors?

Indeed. And I've put forth that maybe the No-God 2.0 doesn't have Chorae because Chorae were a Macgyver solution by Shauriatas in the No-God 1.0 and the Mutilated figured out how to do without.

Again, my darn memory, was it ever confirmed Chorae were in there in the first place? I kept remember it being said 'according to legend' for so long. It always struck me a continued uncertainty. I know Kellhus notes they aren't there, but I can't recall if there were areas they should have been.

The Dreams might have mention, thinking on it.

[Madness]

Again, my darn memory, was it ever confirmed Chorae were in there in the first place? I kept remember it being said 'according to legend' for so long. It always struck me a continued uncertainty. I know Kellhus notes they aren't there, but I can't recall if there were areas they should have been.

The Dreams might have mention, thinking on it.

TWP Dream/flashback, perhaps when Achamian is relaying the Dream of Mengedda to Kellhus... But yes, 11 Chorae embedded in No-God 1.0 (which long-time readers seem to have conceded suggests that Shauriatas wasn't able to get the Full-On Tekne No-God working without sorcery patchwork).

[Khaine]

I thought the chorae on the No-God were there for protection against magic?

Since the No-God is a part of the Ark, it means it is resistant to any kind of medieval technology (swords, lances, catapults, ballistas etc, etc). The only thing that can damage it is magic. By sticking chorae on it you render it immune to its only vulnerability, which leaves only the "weapons of light" of the Inchoroi. In other words only alien technology can cancel out alien technology in the absence of magic.

Plus, if the sarcophagus of the No-God Mark II was intended for Kellhus, wouldn't the chorae turn him into salt?

[Khaine]

I think the most interesting thing about the Psuke is that it works even though Fane's metaphysics was apparently, in Bakker's words, "the most wrong" of all the systems espoused across Earwa.

Very interesting nugget. Where did Bakker mention this? Was it some Q&A session? Prior to the GO and Unholy Consult, I used to think that maybe of all the metaphysical systems, the Fanim's creed might be the correct one. Their sorcerers have no mark and we have seen no evidence of damnation in their worldview. So embracing the Solitary God might be a plausible way of salvation. Also to me it felt appropriate that the other gods are merely daemons, hungers in the void (outside) a la Warhammer 40k lore, but beyond that there is one deity which can be even remotely benevolent.

(and an interesting aside for me, since I take interest in the religion and politics of the Middle East, is that it would be yet another inversion, of our western Christian-influenced worldview, since the system that mostly reflects Islam would be the "correct" one, as opposed the system that echoes Christianity - with elements of Hinduism. As it turns out this is merely my own biases being read into the text  By the way I am an atheist, even though I was raised Christian (Orthodox), but I have a fascination with Islam from a political and sociological point of view).

So Bakker saying that the Fanim are also wrong (surprise, surprise) destroys this crackpot theory of mine.

[Cynical Cat]

They do have no mark but 1) we've had a good explanation for why that it works in TTT that doesn't involve the accuracy of their beliefs and 2) we've been told that their have been others who have used the Psukhe before the advent of Fane.  So buying into the Fanim being right because their sorcery works has always been a palace built on air.

[Cüréthañ]

@Khaine, agree on the Sarcophagus, but I also concede it might have to do with Mimara and her use of Chorae via the Eye. The Consult seem to have info on her that the reader lacks (referring to Aurax talking to Skinspy in TGO)

@Cynical Cat, +1. Somewhat ironic that the magic the Hundred employ (WLW, godspit and Psatma leap to mind) also leaves no Mark.

As an aside, perhaps it is simply that sorcery leaves a Mark only when the sorcerer uses language. I believe Gnostic and Anagogic schools both use dead languages for the Uterals - that's a pretty strong link to a lot of  dead and dawned souls really.