[No TUC Spoilers Please] Knowing you are damned

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obstinate

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« on: July 10, 2017, 12:39:11 pm »
The people of the Earwa seem to have a more empirical knowledge of their religion and the non-physical aspects of their universe than we do. This manifests in a few ways:
  • Claims about the gods and their actions seem more authoritative than modern religions.
  • People who are damned believe themselves damned.
  • Someone who has the Judging Eye does not immediately seem insane to everyone else.
Is it ever discussed from where the people of Earwa gained this heightened knowledge of the non-physical aspects of their universe? Did daimotic sorcerors tell them? Is there some way to infer these principles from their physical reality? Do the gods typically intercede as often as they do in the second trilogy (i.e. is the rate of intercession lower in the first three books than in typical times)? Just curious if this is answered somewhere in the books.

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2017, 02:46:48 pm »
I think one extremely potent fact for that case is the existence of sorcery. When there are hundreds of people running around that can fly, make themselves immune to physical harm, destroy cities, etc. etc., all by just speaking Words... Really its difficult to argue there is no 'metaphysics' in that case.

As you mentioned, some can even physically summon entities from another plane.

Yatwer makes a literal appearance to Sorweel.
The ground talks/eats around Prosperian.

There's just a whole lot in Earwa that is magical. A whole lot more than we see in modern times at the very least. And that's the point - right? Bakker has stated multiple times that he built Earwa to be the world of our ancestors. A world where the world ends at the edge of the map, where angels and demons and gods rule from on high. So, are the Earwani any more convinced of Gods and Demons than our ancestors? Heck, some of us probably have neighbors, friends, and family members today that are equally convinced.

Speaking with authority about that which cannot be seen or proven is exactly how religion always works.

So, is Earwa religion any different than modern religion?
I submit that it is not. Religious people who brake the codes of their gods/leaders truly believe themselves damned. Many religions offer avenues for people to redeem themselves from immanent damnation - from the mundane "say these words and you're free" to more extreme bodily mutilation. What makes Earwa's religion seem outside of what modern day people do, let alone people from 100, 500, 1000, 2500 years ago.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 02:51:33 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Monkhound

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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2017, 05:22:13 pm »
On the whole, I agree, except for the statement below:
Quote
Religious people who brake the codes of their gods/leaders truly believe themselves damned.

If you study all the cults described as heretical by the Christian Church, I'd rather say those usually believed they had the dogma right and that the Church was wrong (and damned).
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

obstinate

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« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2017, 05:28:18 pm »
Do any Earwa religions actually have avenues for redemption? Every time the damnation of sorcerors is discussed, the damnation seems like a thing already accomplished. The Ciphrang that Iokus summoned in TTF does not seem to have any doubt about whether it'll get a chance to munch on his soul later.

I know that there are non-zero people IRL who think they are damned, but I would submit that the rate is much lower than in Earwa. Unless our sampling is super biased and our viewpoint characters (Esmenet, Achmanian) are highly atypical.

Madness

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« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2017, 05:31:14 pm »
Regarding obstinate's subject line: until actual final release day all TUC spoiler commentary will be limited to that sub-forum - though, I'm glad Wilshire sounded the Interval and got some spoiler-tag feedback and ended that circus.

Also, welcome back, obstinate.

Man, go without a phone for over two weeks and a laptop charging cord for a handful of days and I feel like I'm missing out on so many welcomes. Bad time for my technology to fail alongside my corpse ;).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2017, 06:28:15 pm »
Do any Earwa religions actually have avenues for redemption? Every time the damnation of sorcerors is discussed, the damnation seems like a thing already accomplished. The Ciphrang that Iokus summoned in TTF does not seem to have any doubt about whether it'll get a chance to munch on his soul later.
I don't think anyone is quite clear on what needs to be done to not be damned.


I know that there are non-zero people IRL who think they are damned, but I would submit that the rate is much lower than in Earwa.
I know a lot of people that go to confession so save their soul. Maybe the word 'damned' is throwing you/us off? Its a pretty basic tenant in most christan religions that if you sin and don't ask for forgiveness you might go to hell. So, I'd say a fairly significant number of people believe that, and of the ones that really believe certainly worry about eternal damnation.

But my whole point was just that Earwa isn't super far removed from today's world, let alone our ancestors 1000ish years ago - which is basically the world Earwa is in - not so strange at all.
One of the other conditions of possibility.