[TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas

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H

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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2017, 07:29:24 pm »
I'm a reductionist at heart :)

I recall now I am decidedly the opposite, whatever that is called, haha.

The more I think about it though, isn't that exactly what the Consult is trying to do?  Keep the Outside's grubby paws off their precious souls?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2017, 07:33:35 pm »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2017, 07:42:42 pm »
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)
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H

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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2017, 07:57:01 pm »
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)

Yeah, in reality, it's something of a bidirectional system, I think, so a dam is not really the best analogy, probably.

In reality, the No-God is probably a firewall, of sorts.  Nothing in, nothing out.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Walter

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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 08:03:41 pm »
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)

I mean, all we need for the Ark's motivation is for the progenitors to THINK that Earwa is the one.  They can be wrong.  The point is to explain why a soulless device would bother closing the world against Damnation, and it feels like 'because it was programmed to' is a fine answer.

H

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2017, 08:23:37 pm »
Yes.  Which is also why the Progenitors sent Ark out, to find and shut the door to Hell (again, reductionist).  They invaded many worlds, but it never worked because they weren't on Earwa.  Mythologically/historically, there are many places on Earth that were referred to as the 'navel' of the world by their people, or it's center.  Earwa may be the navel of the Bakkerverse.  Heaven/Hell or at least the doorway to those places.  (hearty shrug)

I mean, all we need for the Ark's motivation is for the progenitors to THINK that Earwa is the one.  They can be wrong.  The point is to explain why a soulless device would bother closing the world against Damnation, and it feels like 'because it was programmed to' is a fine answer.

Unless, of course, Ark was souled, as I theorized earlier.  That also answers two questions that would arise, namely: what was the sarcophagus for and how would it have worked?  Those are both solved, along with the locality issues, if Ark had a soul.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Somnambulist

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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2017, 08:51:50 pm »
I tend to think you are correct, H, in that Ark was ensouled.  It had descended upon worlds without number, reducing their populations to 144,00 in an attempt to disrupt the circuit of souls, right?  Since the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of Ark, it would follow that, on those other worlds, Ark's soul powered it.  When it crashed on Earwa, it 'died' and whatever remnant of the Holy Swarm that was left didn't know how to power up the Sarcophagus.  Then Shae figured out that it needed a soul to achieve System Initiation.

Or, maybe Ark just used any old being from whatever planet they were on, and it could help the process along.  Because it died on Earwa, though, the Sarcophagus needed a 'special' being to activate it.  Like, a person with two souls...
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2017, 09:59:35 pm »
I tend to think you are correct, H, in that Ark was ensouled.  It had descended upon worlds without number, reducing their populations to 144,00 in an attempt to disrupt the circuit of souls, right?  Since the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of Ark, it would follow that, on those other worlds, Ark's soul powered it.  When it crashed on Earwa, it 'died' and whatever remnant of the Holy Swarm that was left didn't know how to power up the Sarcophagus.  Then Shae figured out that it needed a soul to achieve System Initiation.

Or, maybe Ark just used any old being from whatever planet they were on, and it could help the process along.  Because it died on Earwa, though, the Sarcophagus needed a 'special' being to activate it.  Like, a person with two souls...
I think that another piece of "evidence" is that the Progenitors were damned for being close to the Absolute.  It would then stand to reason that perhaps Ark's soul was then close to Absolute, even if it wasn't the Progenitor's, per se.

Therefore it would stand to reason that the soul needed for it to power up needs to be close to Absolute. 
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Somnambulist

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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2017, 10:20:38 pm »
The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.
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Cüréthań

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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2017, 10:39:28 pm »
No reason to think Nau-Cayuti was twin-souled though.

Perhaps the reason that Anasurimbor's can complete the Object is because they contain both Halaroi and Cunaroi bios AND a link to the outside that is shared by the ensouled indigenent peoples of Earwa.

edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 11:25:55 pm by Cüréthań »
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2017, 12:03:20 am »
edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.

One of the teasers was talking about Achamian being misled by his dreams, I think this was it.

The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.

IIRC, there is a reference to Celmomas, Nau-Cayuti's papa, being twin souled, but nothing about Nau-Cayuti.

Also, an interesting thing: Kellhus refers to Nau-Cayuti as an ancestor, but he is descended from another son of Celmomas, not Nau-Cayuti. Maybe it's not literal, and he just means relative.

As for the Ark, it could be a creation of the Tekne left behind by the Progenitors. Has anyone read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov? You'll get what I'm thinking. (it's a really short story found on the internet, so I'd recommend a read)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 12:05:03 am by Cuttlefish »

locke

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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2017, 02:29:03 am »
I agree that NC as a child of seswatha was a goad from the mutilated who were manipulating Akkas dreams. It's exactly the sort of lie Akka would want to believe and it should braid him tighter to mimara as he associates himself with seswatha because of the dream he'll now associate the child with NC.

As for ark. I agree ark has / had a soul. But ark is functionally a quadrapelegic since the crash onto earwa, unable to use any of its capacity, totally limited to the accidental awakening of sil et al.

There is a decent chance that if the figure from the circumfix dream is not ajokli then it could be Ark. kellhus seems to think it is the no god, and the no god is the sarcophagus. And the sarcophagus is Ark.

Perhaps the relevant point of comparison is Shae, who has managed to sustain a horrific existence for millennia despite being functionally crippled and near death. Ark is probably in a similar state and perhaps this is why ark spoke with kellhus in such limited fashion.

If Ark needs humans close to the absolute for system resumption as has been suggested upthread then this would indicate that Ark may have been behind the establishment of the dunyain, their ethos, and why they were founded (they were founded to achieve system resumption with purpose bred humans)

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2017, 02:37:43 am »
If Ark needs humans close to the absolute for system resumption as has been suggested upthread then this would indicate that Ark may have been behind the establishment of the dunyain, their ethos, and why they were founded (they were founded to achieve system resumption with purpose bred humans)

I'd like a further study on this; the origins of the Dunyain is a curiosity of mine and I hope Bakker will delve deeper into it

JRControl

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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2017, 03:54:29 am »
First, we have the interesting "revelation" that the Sarcophagus is a prosthesis of the Ark.  In other words, it is a part of the Ark itself.
But wait, it goes further...why does the No-God need a soul in it at all?  How did that work on other worlds?
So, what kind of soul is needed to do so?  Presumably one that is suitably close to Ark's original one.  And if the DūnSult are right and the Progenitor's sin was to stray too close to Absolute, then the surrogate soul needs to also be suitably close to the Absolute too.

In the last pages of TUC I've got a certain vibe about reality as a computer simulation and Ark as the extra-earwan project to crack this simulation from inside not unlike the earwan Duniyain Endeavour (or that certain Agent, who pwned the whole Matrix by becoming the every possible part of it). Glossary bits about "system" only solidified that impression. Thinking this way near-Absolute souls look like detonating fuses or spark plugs, a means for chain reaction when nothing can dominate everything.

Now I'm coming to something of a paradox here.
Is it possible to arrange a crippled, enslaved self-moving soul?
For No-God looks like both at the same time. A big BSOD.

The No-God would be a boot-sector virus then. Overwritting everything with nothing. What do you see? What do you read in computers terms? Not zero, or even one, but no value NULL. Earwa would then be the kernel code and killing everything under 144k would trigger some ROM only reboot.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2017, 10:41:08 am »
edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.

One of the teasers was talking about Achamian being misled by his dreams, I think this was it.

The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.

IIRC, there is a reference to Celmomas, Nau-Cayuti's papa, being twin souled, but nothing about Nau-Cayuti.

Also, an interesting thing: Kellhus refers to Nau-Cayuti as an ancestor, but he is descended from another son of Celmomas, not Nau-Cayuti. Maybe it's not literal, and he just means relative.

Technically, wouldn't Kellhus be descended from Ganrelka II?  He is the last one at Ishuäl and his bastard son is the only survivor when the Dūnyain arrive.

The question of who Ganrelka is though, in relation to Celmomas, is not know though, unfortunately.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira