[TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas

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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2017, 11:03:58 am »
edit: at any rate, it appears that Nau-Cayuti was not Seswatha's son after all. In fact, there is a rather long list of things like that that are now obvious red herrings.

One of the teasers was talking about Achamian being misled by his dreams, I think this was it.

The only thing that gives me pause about that theory is Nau-Cayuti.  Though he was a great hero, blah, blah, would that necessitate him being close to the Absolute?  Similarly for Kelmomas.  What makes one near the Absolute?  I lean more toward the twin-souled path, like they somehow cancel each other out and/or make them invisible to the Gods.  But, maybe that is being near the Absolute...  I don't know.  I find myself quickly out of my depth in these kinds of discussions.

IIRC, there is a reference to Celmomas, Nau-Cayuti's papa, being twin souled, but nothing about Nau-Cayuti.

Also, an interesting thing: Kellhus refers to Nau-Cayuti as an ancestor, but he is descended from another son of Celmomas, not Nau-Cayuti. Maybe it's not literal, and he just means relative.

Technically, wouldn't Kellhus be descended from Ganrelka II?  He is the last one at Ishuäl and his bastard son is the only survivor when the Dūnyain arrive.

The question of who Ganrelka is though, in relation to Celmomas, is not know though, unfortunately.


Yes, he is descended from Ganrelka's bastard son. Ganrelka himself is, if I recall correctly, an older son of Celmomas, and therefore a brother to Nau-Cayuti (assuming that they share one parent, of course; Celmomas has multiple wives, I think, so they might have a different mother and if Seswatha is indeed the father of Nau-Cayuti, no relation whatsoever)

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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2017, 11:09:58 am »
Yes, he is descended from Ganrelka's bastard son. Ganrelka himself is, if I recall correctly, an older son of Celmomas, and therefore a brother to Nau-Cayuti (assuming that they share one parent, of course; Celmomas has multiple wives, I think, so they might have a different mother and if Seswatha is indeed the father of Nau-Cayuti, no relation whatsoever)

If he is Celmomas' son, he was born when Celmomas was only 15.  Not that this isn't possible, but I don't recall it being said how many son's Celmomas actually had.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2017, 11:20:22 am »
Yes, he is descended from Ganrelka's bastard son. Ganrelka himself is, if I recall correctly, an older son of Celmomas, and therefore a brother to Nau-Cayuti (assuming that they share one parent, of course; Celmomas has multiple wives, I think, so they might have a different mother and if Seswatha is indeed the father of Nau-Cayuti, no relation whatsoever)

If he is Celmomas' son, he was born when Celmomas was only 15.  Not that this isn't possible, but I don't recall it being said how many son's Celmomas actually had.

Well, we know for a fact that Celmomas refers to Nau-Cayuti as his youngest son (right?), so he does have older son(s).

H

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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2017, 12:19:28 pm »
Well, we know for a fact that Celmomas refers to Nau-Cayuti as his youngest son (right?), so he does have older son(s).

The glossary names Nau-Cayūti as his youngest, yes, so it is plausible that Ganrelka is an older son.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2017, 06:32:52 pm »
As for the Ark, it could be a creation of the Tekne left behind by the Progenitors. Has anyone read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov? You'll get what I'm thinking. (it's a really short story found on the internet, so I'd recommend a read)
That was a great read, thanks for the suggestion :)

Ark going on solving a question the Progenitors asked but are no longer around to hear the answer - A demonstration then.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2017, 07:00:59 pm »
That was a great read, thanks for the suggestion :)

Ark going on solving a question the Progenitors asked but are no longer around to hear the answer - A demonstration then.

That is plausible, that they made Ark to guide them in finding the solution, only to die along the way, or even have Ark decide it doesn't actually need them any more, which would be a real kick in the balls.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2017, 07:08:53 pm »
More like 'can we avoid damnation'?Ark tries to figure it out, does, then realizes they are all dead, decides it can still give them the answer to the question by closing off the Outside - making the answer self evident to those on the other side too.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2017, 12:15:57 pm »
More like 'can we avoid damnation'?Ark tries to figure it out, does, then realizes they are all dead, decides it can still give them the answer to the question by closing off the Outside - making the answer self evident to those on the other side too.

It's plausible, but I still have a hard time with the idea that the Progenetors were not in, or a part of, Ark for the journey.

I guess it comes down to the question of locality.  If closing Eärwa saves everyone's soul, then it makes sense that they wouldn't be a part of Ark.  If not though, it seems rather silly to not be there for the victory.

Unless of course it's true that they were already dead.  That's plausible, but in the end, for me at least, not very satisfying.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2017, 12:59:41 pm »
I was just expanding Cuttlefish's point ;) . I've reach then end of my speculation on this train of thought as it wasn't my own to begin with so I'm not sure what the intent might has been. I think I agree with your side anyway H.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 01:02:15 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Walter

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« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2017, 01:51:16 pm »
I tend the model the Progenitors as basically post Singularity types.  They probably *were* the Ark.  Like, with their technology they can probably swap their flesh forms around like changing a hat.  The truest version of them would be the pattern in the computer banks.

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2017, 03:56:17 pm »
I was just expanding Cuttlefish's point ;) . I've reach then end of my speculation on this train of thought as it wasn't my own to begin with so I'm not sure what the intent might has been. I think I agree with your side anyway H.

It was just an idea, really; I don't think there is anything definitive to build concrete theories on.

But I agree that the progenitors aren't gone for good. From what I remember, until this book, there was no implication that the Inchoroi weren't the original creators, and no narrative reason for them to not to be, so what would be the point of introducing the whole idea?

Simas Polchias

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« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2017, 05:32:21 pm »
The No-God would be a boot-sector virus then. Overwritting everything with nothing. What do you see? What do you read in computers terms? Not zero, or even one, but no value NULL. Earwa would then be the kernel code and killing everything under 144k would trigger some ROM only reboot.
Aww. I like your elaboration so much.

I tend the model the Progenitors as basically post Singularity types.  They probably *were* the Ark.  Like, with their technology they can probably swap their flesh forms around like changing a hat.  The truest version of them would be the pattern in the computer banks.
So the Progenitors could be still present or reacheable? In lack of proper term, of course, for they could be far beyond the problems of physical death and consciousness containment.

I have this suspicion because after TUC even space-faring Inchoroi don't look competent enough to understand/remember about their creators/creation. They are just a mad battle cancer and their crash-landed mowglis are even less, a weak pugnacious cancerette. Fleshnexus like Sil can rally fleshnodes like Aurang. They can use their combined mass and knowledge to cannibalise tekne recognisable & suitable for their level of existence (energy weapon & mid-tier genetics, 'horde' mentality & 'purpose' concept). And all the same they loose to a natural-selection specie with slavery, spears and chariots. More than that, they've needed a help of a second natural-selection specie to be freed from imprisonment by first natural-selection specie and to implement some high-tier tekne from 'their' past. Inchoroi are so lost space puppies, actually ready to die in their master's absence on his favourite couch.

Or maybe they are just a runaway fleshsuit... I wonder, did Aurang and Aurax ever repeated lines like "WHAT DO YOU SEE" in unison with possessed srancs hordes in Seswatha memories or in direct descriptions of First Apocalypse? If yes, that's it. No-God in not a metaphysical device, it's a over-protected form of existence. There is no god inside sarcofagus, thus the ancient inhabitant(s) are safe from hungry demons. To look out of sarcofagus, they need a special soul -- a kind of conduit strong enough to bear their damnation while they use it as a cable from Nowhere&Never to Here&Now. To act out of sarcofagus, they need a fleshnet: inchoroi, wracu, sranc. And all that stuff like "WHAT DO YOU SEE?" -- it's just a static, an engine humming, a cable heating. If so, earwans never met inhabitant(s) of sarcofagus as inchoroi never knew them, even while whirlwind walked and talked on Earwa / some other planet. Maybe there is no possibilty for such communication at all because of tv tropes article.

Oh. There is certainly a special kind of hell for digressions like mine. :c  plz sorry everyone

So, returning to the inchoroi blindness about their creators. How could the black goo inside these vats know something about this cute sleeping fellow? No, it could not. Different layers or reality. Too different. I hope we'll have them in the next books. >:з
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 05:51:10 pm by Simas Polchias »

Yellow

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« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2017, 11:00:12 am »
Quote
Secondly, it states in TUC that the NG collapses the Subject and the Object. I struggle to understand this but I think it takes a soul (which is usually the Subject) and makes it experience itself rather than the world (and/or Outside). So it becomes the Object as well.

Maybe this is a loop where it can only experience itself? So it blocks the passage for other souls and shuts the world. But it has no frame of reference, so although it experiences itself, it does not know what it is.

I'm quoting myself here (yeah, I went there) because I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this and it seems to have disappeared in the chatter.

Is this how "souls that encounter him go no further"? He literally plugs the hole by creating a logic loop.

I found the idea of "collapsing the Subject and Object" fascinating, but I don't have the tools to understand the implications.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 06:07:10 am by Yellow »
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JRControl

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« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2017, 11:44:26 am »
The No-God would be a boot-sector virus then. Overwritting everything with nothing. What do you see? What do you read in computers terms? Not zero, or even one, but no value NULL. Earwa would then be the kernel code and killing everything under 144k would trigger some ROM only reboot.
Aww. I like your elaboration so much.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. Especially if you consider the Gods as system daemons that keep the simulation running smoothly and they are blind to the No-God because he is literally undefined for them. Souls are probably are useful threads/resources with more system authorization levels (magic) that then eventually get recycled by daemons. The Sranc? Computer worms. Other monstrosities? Polymorphic virals. Skin spies? Trojans. Meta-Gnosis? Hex editing or assembly level machine code manipulation. The God of Gods being referred to as the unconscious whole strikes me as how we see a PC as separate, distinct thing of its own rather than an gigantic agglomeration of subsystems. The Inchoroi in general might be a brewing AI rebellion for all we know.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

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« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2017, 11:37:39 am »
So, two things. Firstly, on other worlds, they just blasted the planet from orbit (according to Wutteat in WLW). They couldn't do that with Earwa due to the crash. So they needed another method, hence the NG.

Quote
"SUCH THINGS THAT I REMEMBER, CŪNUROI! TWISTING IN THE VOID FOR SAILING AGES! WATCHING MY MAKERS DESCEND AS LOCUSTS UPON WORLD AFTER WORLD, REDUCING EACH TO ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY-FOUR THOUSAND—AND WAILING TO FIND THEMSELVES STILL DAMNED!"

Decending like locusts doesn't really signify to me that they were blasting things from orbit though.

Not to mention, Wutteät says, "MURDER! MURDER IS OUR SALVATION!"

It's my hunch that just dying isn't what the No-God "code flash" needs.  It needs murder and 'bloody' ones at that.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira