[TUC Spoilers]The Incū-Holoinas

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« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2017, 11:18:35 am »
On (off) topic because I definitely will have further thoughts for this thread post-read:

Wutteat also mentions the Black Heavens calling and there's the in-text supposition that "the soul that passes the No-God goes no further" (badly paraphrasing). I've definitely seem conjecture down that road suggesting that the No-God takes on all the souls of those killed while it's active.

Or maybe it's the Oblivion the Nonmen so desperately seek.

I am sort of convinced based for shaky logic and flimsy evidence that Black Heaven literally refers to being trapped in the Sarcophagus (which happens to be black).  It is essentially like Oblivion, only somehow not.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2017, 12:41:50 pm »
We've given up on long-term speculation that the No-God is a Soul Hoover and functions as a Pocket-Outside?
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2017, 04:34:37 am »
Would be fitting if it replaces the Outside with one of its own where it's too stuck trying to figure out itself to judge anyone.

Khaine

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« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2017, 07:01:11 am »
Maybe slightly off topic but  the question that I have is that how do we know that the world can but shut from the Outside?

Apparently the Ichoroi have travelled to many worlds, laid them all to waste to no avail.

Then they crash land on this new planet, the promised land, which despite their best efforts has not been closed yet.

We only have their words for it.  Even if the magic number is achieved, what happens once the population grows again?

My suspicion is that they are all mistaken. There is no salvation, there is no escape from the ultimate reality of the outside and the Inchoroi have bled worlds for nothing.

Knowing was the foundation of ignorance. To think that one *knew* was to become utterly blind to the unknown.

R. Scott Baker, The White Luck Warrior, chapter 12.

ἕν οἶδα, ὅτι οὐδέν οἶδα

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« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2017, 09:23:00 am »
Maybe slightly off topic but  the question that I have is that how do we know that the world can but shut from the Outside?

Apparently the Ichoroi have travelled to many worlds, laid them all to waste to no avail.

Then they crash land on this new planet, the promised land, which despite their best efforts has not been closed yet.

We only have their words for it.  Even if the magic number is achieved, what happens once the population grows again?

My suspicion is that they are all mistaken. There is no salvation, there is no escape from the ultimate reality of the outside and the Inchoroi have bled worlds for nothing.

Well, they are at least able to shut the entrance with the No-God (entrance shut=no new souls=babies stillborn). So, logically it should also be possible to shut the exit when the souls go to the Outside.

Which actually makes me wonder. Where do the souls come from? The No-God closes the "gateway" which new souls come from, why can'tot close the exit? IOf the No-God closed BOTH the entry and the exit, then there would be no need for genocide.

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« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2017, 09:59:43 am »
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

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« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2017, 10:34:45 am »
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.

Knowing was the foundation of ignorance. To think that one *knew* was to become utterly blind to the unknown.

R. Scott Baker, The White Luck Warrior, chapter 12.

ἕν οἶδα, ὅτι οὐδέν οἶδα

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« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2017, 10:56:49 am »
Which actually makes me wonder. Where do the souls come from? The No-God closes the "gateway" which new souls come from, why can'tot close the exit? IOf the No-God closed BOTH the entry and the exit, then there would be no need for genocide.

If the description is true, there is a cycle of souls.

It wouldn't make much sense if it was a one out-one in scenario though, because then the population could never grow, which it certain can (and does).  I think the No-God must interface with basically every soul though, in some way, which is where the name "Mursiris" (Wicked North) comes from.  That feeling of dread, even when one cannot see the No-God.  I think that is the pull that it somehow has on souls.

Add to this how we are told that "the soul that encounters him goes no further."  So, I think it is plausible that the No-God covers both the exit and the entrance.

My best guess is because it somehow pulls them all to it and "devours" them.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2017, 10:59:27 am »
Maybe slightly off topic but  the question that I have is that how do we know that the world can but shut from the Outside?

Apparently the Ichoroi have travelled to many worlds, laid them all to waste to no avail.

Then they crash land on this new planet, the promised land, which despite their best efforts has not been closed yet.

We only have their words for it.  Even if the magic number is achieved, what happens once the population grows again?

My suspicion is that they are all mistaken. There is no salvation, there is no escape from the ultimate reality of the outside and the Inchoroi have bled worlds for nothing.

Well, they are at least able to shut the entrance with the No-God (entrance shut=no new souls=babies stillborn). So, logically it should also be possible to shut the exit when the souls go to the Outside.

Which actually makes me wonder. Where do the souls come from? The No-God closes the "gateway" which new souls come from, why can'tot close the exit? IOf the No-God closed BOTH the entry and the exit, then there would be no need for genocide.

What is the obsession with the 144,000 souls (apart from being an allusion to a certain Christian sect)?

Descending on a world with the aim to kill everybody to shut it from the Outside, is bound to cause a reaction and a fightback which can thwart your plans. These guys tried it with the Nomen, and they failed. They tried with the No god and they failed. Probably they will try it again in the third series and probably things will not go to plan.

So if the plan never really works, how do they know what they know?

It all goes back to my original suspicion that the Inchois and their Dunyain overlords have all lost the plot. They are trying the impossible in a desperate search to transcend a reality that simply cannot bow to mortal designs. The Outside is simply bigger than anyone and all efforts to control it or protect from it are bound to fail.

Knowing was the foundation of ignorance. To think that one *knew* was to become utterly blind to the unknown.

R. Scott Baker, The White Luck Warrior, chapter 12.

ἕν οἶδα, ὅτι οὐδέν οἶδα

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« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2017, 12:10:49 pm »
What is the obsession with the 144,000 souls (apart from being an allusion to a certain Christian sect)?

Descending on a world with the aim to kill everybody to shut it from the Outside, is bound to cause a reaction and a fightback which can thwart your plans. These guys tried it with the Nomen, and they failed. They tried with the No god and they failed. Probably they will try it again in the third series and probably things will not go to plan.

So if the plan never really works, how do they know what they know?

It all goes back to my original suspicion that the Inchois and their Dunyain overlords have all lost the plot. They are trying the impossible in a desperate search to transcend a reality that simply cannot bow to mortal designs. The Outside is simply bigger than anyone and all efforts to control it or protect from it are bound to fail.

Well, with the Sarcophagus being a technology, I'd venture to guess that the 144k solution is a mathematical proof, or something similar.  Presumably some kind of storage matrix, or limit of extent over which it can exert it's effect.  It could be "known" to work via simulation, or simply a theoretical extrapolation.  Of course, they can't be 100% certain, but it sure would be better than nothing.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2017, 12:38:56 pm »
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.


I can only assume their understanding of metaphysics has given the progenitors reason to believe that such a thing exists. At least some of their predictions have born out.

Plus, y'know, not much of a theme to the series otherwise.

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« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2017, 03:15:45 pm »
I keep misreading "Incu - Holoinas" as "Incu-Hollandaise". Coincidence? I THINK NOT.
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« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2017, 01:49:28 am »
The dread might of the Inky-Häagendazs

Khaine

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« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2017, 05:38:10 am »
I guess until they've done it, they're operating on theory. At least their makers seem to have predicted some of the attributes of the promised world. That's a good indication they have at least some idea what's up.

What if everything is just one grand rationalisation to justify their hedonistic and genocidal ways?


How could they know from before about a promised world, especially when they have tried the experiment (presumably) other times and they failed? All we have is a forgotten prophecy of a species that has been driven to the edge of annihilation in charge of technology they barely understand.

It is just a projection to justify their depraved nature which has been hollowed out by the unattainable pursuit of the absolute of salvation. There is no salvation, there is no justice, just the gods eating the souls of the living.


I can only assume their understanding of metaphysics has given the progenitors reason to believe that such a thing exists. At least some of their predictions have born out.

Plus, y'know, not much of a theme to the series otherwise.

My reading is that all efforts to achieve the great themes of the series, such as pursuit of the Absolute, Salvation, following Heroic leaders, living and dying by the Book fail and quite possibly have always been in vain.

The Inchoroi drove themselves to extinction in their quest to reach salvation.

The Dunyain despite their efforts to master all circumstances, were destroyed by ancient aliens who used magic and genetically engineered beasts (two possibilities that the Logos could not predict) and then the last survivors of the Order succumbed to an even greater evil.

Kellhus despite his meta-gnosis and his infernal pact with Ajoklis is undone in the moment of his triumph. And we don't even know if his plan would have worked. In any case the TTT couldn't take him beyond the Golden Room. So even TTT fails and subsequently failed Kellhus.

Proyas lived his whole life trying to be pious, and we know how that turned out.

Achamian the scholar and the sceptic, despite his hatred for Kellhus in the end sort of believes that maybe the Aspect-Emperor had plan. But if Achamian was to find out what actually took place in the Golden Room his assessment for Kellhus could easily be revised to something negative again.

Esmenet the only person who may be holy, as per the Judging Eye, has given birth to a monstrous family and her husband was plotting to become the Avatar of the God of Deceit. It doesn't get more ironic than this.

All grand designs come to nothing, nothing goes according to plan.

I suspect that the Second Apocalypse, which I guess will the subject matter of the third series, will fail to seal off the world. Which then leads back to the original question, if no world was ever successfully shut, why do these crazy aliens keep attempting the same genocidal action every time? Isn't the definition of madness to keep doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome?

 
Knowing was the foundation of ignorance. To think that one *knew* was to become utterly blind to the unknown.

R. Scott Baker, The White Luck Warrior, chapter 12.

ἕν οἶδα, ὅτι οὐδέν οἶδα

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« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2017, 06:32:51 am »
Well for one thing they have reason to believe it does work, eventually, what with the blindness to the No-God.