Poll

Provided there is more story coming, do you think there is a time skip forward of a few years, or do you think the story continues from the end of TUC

Story jumps forward a significant period of time
7 (46.7%)
Story continues from basically the end of TUC
8 (53.3%)

Total Members Voted: 15

[TUC SPOILERS] After this...

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Walter

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« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2017, 02:53:58 am »
Worth pointing out that the No-God this time around is half Dunyain.  It took apart the whole of the Great Ordeal in an afternoon or so, which was a host far stronger than any that existed in the past.  I think the Sranc chorae relay was beyond anything the old No-God could pull off.  I wouldn't count on the fortresses and armies of the world having any shot at all.

H

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« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2017, 11:26:44 am »
There is surely less resistance this time though, as the North no longer exists as an opponent for the No-God and is now just distance to be crossed.  OK, Atrithau and Sakarpus are still there, but I don't see them as significant as Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard looted by the Ordeal, and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery.

It's not entirely clear why anarcane ground or the Chorae Hoard really prevented the No-God from destroying either of those places though.

I've speculated before that it's possible that there is some kind of perceptual "blindness" that each affords, but it's also likely that without sorcery, it just simply wasn't worth the effort.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Walter

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« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2017, 12:48:19 pm »
and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery. 

Big question here is whether the No-God's control of the Sranc is, itself, sorcerous enough to be inactive on anarcane ground.

Wilshire

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« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2017, 01:51:18 pm »
and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery. 

Big question here is whether the No-God's control of the Sranc is, itself, sorcerous enough to be inactive on anarcane ground.

Seems likely to me that the NG itself is sorcerous, rather than something as etheral as 'its control'. Because, you'll note, that the sranc holding the chorae remain in control. So it seems reasonable that a large store of chorae or Anarcane ground prevent the NG from entering the area. There's also, probably, so geographic limit to NG's control over the sranc, so preventing the NG from getting relatively close prevents it from extending its control to that region.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Walter

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« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2017, 02:53:30 pm »
I don't think there are geographic limits to the No-God's control.  Wasn't there a 'one vast and terrible will' quote somewhere?  There may be a limit in regards to how important the beast is though.  I think Wutteat says something about being beyond even the Black Heaven, and folks seem to think that Aurax/Aurang aren't necessarily just terminals.

Wilshire

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« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2017, 03:45:12 pm »
Maybe a function of strength of control vs distance. Ie, sranc army next to the whirlwind can form complex chorae passing routes, sranc 4000 miles away are vaguely compelled to seek out the NG.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2017, 02:28:30 pm »
Slowly working through threads - without yet having read the canon artifact - while working through whatever is ailing me now on top of a broken foot.

On topic, I disagree with much of what has been written here :).

I will gladly elaborate in the future but I think that TAE suffers this unwarranted readerly bias that it somehow needed to tell the whole story, where that same onus was not put upon PON - as Wilshire mentioned, Bakker certainly did a disservice by building up that bias across the past half-decade and more. As I've discussed with others privately a handful of times, there are fairly well-defined and contained narrative arcs in TAE and the individual volumes therein. In my opinion, to fixate on those things that aren't addressed (for instance, Mimara's journey to become a Prophetess - her arc across TAE - versus what she might do with that later) is misreading TAE as it stands alone.

But, as I said, lots of time to get into the minutia of my thoughts once I read TUC in tattooed, dead tree form.
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profgrape

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« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2017, 03:40:16 pm »
I think the No-God was 'alive' for 11 years the first time.

There is surely less resistance this time though, as the North no longer exists as an opponent for the No-God and is now just distance to be crossed.  OK, Atrithau and Sakarpus are still there, but I don't see them as significant as Sakarpus has the Chorae Hoard looted by the Ordeal, and the anarcane ground at Artithau can surely just be overrun by Sranc without any need for sorcery. 
The Three Seas can probably raise one or more significantly large armies, given its high population, but most of its military leadership has just been obliterated at Golgotterath, as has most if not all of the sorcerous schools.  Additionally the administrative centre of the Empire has been devastated by earthquake and flood.  Soldiers have to be trained, sorcerors have to be taught, they all have to be supplied.
Which leaves us with Zeum (we don't know what their military capabilities are)
and the Scylvendi

Agree with this big time.  Some thoughts on surviving military powers:

Atrithau. Like Zeum, "unarcane ground" is something that Bakker's on record saying is left for future books.  So chances are it'll play a part. 

However, Atrithau might be in worse shape than some think.  The glossary entry (at least, in the ARC) for Aethelarius (Atrithau King) notes that he was killed by Cnaiur and the Scylvendi in the Battle of the Eels.  And IIRC, the date made it seem like something that happened when the Scylvendi were on their way to Golgatterath.  So they are likely severely weakened.

Sakarpus.  They have a number of able-bodied warriors.  But without the Chorae Horde, I'm guessing they couldn't do a lot to slow down the NG and co.

Fanim.  Between those who abandoned Fanayal and other bedouin who kept to themselves, there are enough warriors to put up some sort of a fight.  Especially in adverse conditions like desert -- Sranc can starve just like humans.

Jekkhia and Cingulat.  Like Sakarpus and Zeum, these are two remote kingdoms that didn't bend the knee to Kellhus.  I don't imagine they're exactly teeming with military might.  But it's something.

Any way you slice it, the fate of Earwa rests in the hands of Zeum and the women of the Three Seas[/u].  What's interesting about this is that in an early version of Earwa, the Satyothi, like women, were objectively lesser in the eyes of the Gods!

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2017, 04:53:10 pm »
Jekkhia and Cingulat.  Like Sakarpus and Zeum, these are two remote kingdoms that didn't bend the knee to Kellhus.  I don't imagine they're exactly teeming with military might.  But it's something.

I might be remembering wrong, but weren't there some people from Jekkhia and Cingulat among the Scions? Of course, that didn't mean they were conquered (Zeüm wasn't and Zsoronga was part of the Scions too), but I got the impression Zeüm was the last place of importance left standing.
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profgrape

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« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2017, 05:22:19 pm »
Jekkhia and Cingulat.  Like Sakarpus and Zeum, these are two remote kingdoms that didn't bend the knee to Kellhus.  I don't imagine they're exactly teeming with military might.  But it's something.

I might be remembering wrong, but weren't there some people from Jekkhia and Cingulat among the Scions? Of course, that didn't mean they were conquered (Zeüm wasn't and Zsoronga was part of the Scions too), but I got the impression Zeüm was the last place of importance left standing.

Yup, there were hostages from Jekkhia and Cingulat among the Scions.  Like you say above, that doesn't necessarily make them as independent or as mighty as Zeum.  But also don't remember military contingents from either kingdom in the GO.  So there might be some strength there?

codebread

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« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2017, 06:15:03 pm »
I'm going to toss an opposing idea in here: What if it actually jumps backwards a few days?

As mentioned here, Zeum is one of the most able to defend itself right now. However... it has a Ciphrang coming for it at the end of TGO. There's no way any chaos that results from this hasn't already happened by the time Resumption occurs. Plus, Bakker has said that Zeum will play a role at some point... I'd be interested in having the story continue from Zeum's point of view at the end of TGO, showing the Ciphrang arriving, the No-God being born, and continuing from there.

I just don't think a time jump could be useful unless the final series is about a small resistance after the rest of the world is destroyed. Plus there are too many loose ends at the end of TUC, as opposed to TTT which wrapped up the story arcs nicely. Moe Jr. is now in control of the Scylvendi. I suspect he'll rally them to fight the No-God (they might even have the Heron Spear). What happened to the rest of the main cast? Who knows! A time jump would be awkward, in my opinion, but who knows.

profgrape

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« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2017, 06:20:35 pm »
I'm going to toss an opposing idea in here: What if it actually jumps backwards a few days?

As mentioned here, Zeum is one of the most able to defend itself right now. However... it has a Ciphrang coming for it at the end of TGO. There's no way any chaos that results from this hasn't already happened by the time Resumption occurs. Plus, Bakker has said that Zeum will play a role at some point... I'd be interested in having the story continue from Zeum's point of view at the end of TGO, showing the Ciphrang arriving, the No-God being born, and continuing from there.

I just don't think a time jump could be useful unless the final series is about a small resistance after the rest of the world is destroyed. Plus there are too many loose ends at the end of TUC, as opposed to TTT which wrapped up the story arcs nicely. Moe Jr. is now in control of the Scylvendi. I suspect he'll rally them to fight the No-God (they might even have the Heron Spear). What happened to the rest of the main cast? Who knows! A time jump would be awkward, in my opinion, but who knows.

I wouldn't be surprised if it went like that, codebread.  At the very least, we'd need to get some flashbacks, right?

On the topic of the Ciphrang assassin, whether or not the Emperor is killed before Resumption is entirely up to how fast said Ciphrang can move.  I got the impression that it's only a matter of days between Kellhus sending the Ciphrang and Resumption.  And if the Ciphrang had to reach Domyot through mundane means, it would at least take months.  I wouldn't be surprised if the assassination happens a good bit after Resumption.

codebread

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« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2017, 06:24:51 pm »

I will gladly elaborate in the future but I think that TAE suffers this unwarranted readerly bias that it somehow needed to tell the whole story, where that same onus was not put upon PON - as Wilshire mentioned, Bakker certainly did a disservice by building up that bias across the past half-decade and more. As I've discussed with others privately a handful of times, there are fairly well-defined and contained narrative arcs in TAE and the individual volumes therein. In my opinion, to fixate on those things that aren't addressed (for instance, Mimara's journey to become a Prophetess - her arc across TAE - versus what she might do with that later) is misreading TAE as it stands alone.

But, as I said, lots of time to get into the minutia of my thoughts once I read TUC in tattooed, dead tree form.

I agree to some extent. However, PON had many, if not most, of its story arcs concluded in TTT. There were questions to be asked, surely, but the main conflict was resolved. That could have been the case for TAE, if not for all of the questions raised by the cliffhanger ending. Looking at Goodreads reviews, it seems that many people aren't even aware that there will be a third series.

This is why I'm hoping for no time jump, or a very small one.

I'm going to toss an opposing idea in here: What if it actually jumps backwards a few days?

As mentioned here, Zeum is one of the most able to defend itself right now. However... it has a Ciphrang coming for it at the end of TGO. There's no way any chaos that results from this hasn't already happened by the time Resumption occurs. Plus, Bakker has said that Zeum will play a role at some point... I'd be interested in having the story continue from Zeum's point of view at the end of TGO, showing the Ciphrang arriving, the No-God being born, and continuing from there.

I just don't think a time jump could be useful unless the final series is about a small resistance after the rest of the world is destroyed. Plus there are too many loose ends at the end of TUC, as opposed to TTT which wrapped up the story arcs nicely. Moe Jr. is now in control of the Scylvendi. I suspect he'll rally them to fight the No-God (they might even have the Heron Spear). What happened to the rest of the main cast? Who knows! A time jump would be awkward, in my opinion, but who knows.

I wouldn't be surprised if it went like that, codebread.  At the very least, we'd need to get some flashbacks, right?

On the topic of the Ciphrang assassin, whether or not the Emperor is killed before Resumption is entirely up to how fast said Ciphrang can move.  I got the impression that it's only a matter of days between Kellhus sending the Ciphrang and Resumption.  And if the Ciphrang had to reach Domyot through mundane means, it would at least take months.  I wouldn't be surprised if the assassination happens a good bit after Resumption.

Hmmm... good point. I was thinking that Resumption was more than a few days, though not much longer than a week. I also imagined the Ciphrang would fly, but that was based purely on their summoned forms, which this is not. Perhaps this assassin is closer to a skin-spy, in a way.

profgrape

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« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2017, 06:33:44 pm »
Perhaps this assassin is closer to a skin-spy, in a way.

On the subject of skin-spies, is it just me or do you all expect Zeum to be full of SS?  Almost wondering if the Emperor is one himself.  In which case the Ciphrang-assassin would actually be helping...

Wilshire

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« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2017, 06:41:04 pm »

I agree to some extent. However, PON had many, if not most, of its story arcs concluded in TTT. There were questions to be asked, surely, but the main conflict was resolved. That could have been the case for TAE, if not for all of the questions raised by the cliffhanger ending. Looking at Goodreads reviews, it seems that many people aren't even aware that there will be a third series.

Was it really that different?

Moenghus was a huge build up - dies suddenly
Cnaiur - no idea if he lived or died
Akka - denounces Kellhus and walks off - major cliff hanger
Esmenet - still torn between Kellhus and Akka
Kellhus - Master of the Three Seas - ok this one is pretty much 'concluded', but what's next?
Iyokus and the Ciphrang?
Consult?
Inchoroi?
What the heck is TTT?
What's the No God?
We still know nothing of the Nonmen, what's up with them?


Which other ones am I missing? Depending on which themantic elements you choose to look at, we really didn't get a whole lot from TTT. It ends as much in the middle of the story that TUC does.

As per "main conflict resolved" in TUC that you noted above:

Resolved Kellhus - dead
Resolved Consult - usurped and replaced
Resolved Kelmomas - NG
Resolved Esment - done
Resolved Mimara and her pregnancy - finished
Resolved Serwe - gone
Resolved TGO - its dead

Everything is as resolved or as unresolved as you choose to view it - and thats the point, isn't it? I can't speak to your frame of mind when originally reading TTT vs TUC, but if you are viewing them from the same lens now, how different are they?

We have the benefit of 4 books after TTT, not to mention the better part of a decade of speculation and conversation to make sense of it. Comparing what we know of TTT now compared to what we know of TUC now is hardly an apples to apples comparison is it? And how can we go back, and remember how we felt about TTT back then and fairly compare it to TUC now? Even if you read them all at once very recently, you still have 4 books between them, and trying to remember would be revisionist at best, yeah? :)
One of the other conditions of possibility.