[TUC Spoilers] Kellhus and future stories

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Walter

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« on: July 18, 2017, 01:47:41 pm »
So...let's guess at the final fate of our Lord and Prophet.

Do you think he is hanging from the statues hip in the other head?  Dead and being tortured on the outside?  Dead and become a Ciphrang?  Dead and become Ajokli?  Alive and it was a body double that got salted?  Actually inside of the No-God?

Let's hear it!

For myself, I think he is, himself, the Head On A Pole.  His spirit is tortured in the Outside, but his head is on the statue's belt, and he is not dead, so the Hundred cannot truly torture him.  I think those scenes were flash forwards to this time.

[EDIT Madness: Rearranged Subject.]
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 03:00:15 pm by Madness »

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 01:52:58 pm »
I believe the Ciphrang hypothesis for now (might change after rereads) mainly because of the "I descend as hunger" line.
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2017, 01:57:14 pm »
So...let's guess at the final fate of our Lord and Prophet.

Do you think he is hanging from the statues hip in the other head?  Dead and being tortured on the outside?  Dead and become a Ciphrang?  Dead and become Ajokli?  Alive and it was a body double that got salted?  Actually inside of the No-God?

Let's hear it!

For myself, I think he is, himself, the Head On A Pole.  His spirit is tortured in the Outside, but his head is on the statue's belt, and he is not dead, so the Hundred cannot truly torture him.  I think those scenes were flash forwards to this time.

Well, at the end, it seems like Ajokli is looking for Kellhus' soul and certainly seems to be feeling cheated.

So, yeah, I do think that Kellhus' soul is somewhere.  Now, perhaps it is in his own head, because when "Kellhus'" head erupts into a gout of flame, I have my doubts that was his own.  There is little doubt in my mind that the head-on-a-pole is/was Kellhus own.  Indeed, this could be another way in which Kellhus avoids the fate of those who would usually visit the Outside.  He actually was a Ciphrang already, so not "vulnerable" to them in the way other mortals would be.

Interesting to think about that part in light of TUC, as the line, "The living shall not haunt the dead" could simply be foreshadowing that Kellhus, 'haunting the dead' in that scene, will, at some point, not be living.  Which we now know why.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2017, 02:03:31 pm »
He's saved. We're on our own now.

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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 02:08:17 pm »
He's saved. We're on our own now.

I'd disagree there.  While I think he managed to save himself from damnation, I don't think that is the same as being saved.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

themerchant

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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 02:40:28 pm »
What is "saved" if not saved from damnation?

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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2017, 02:47:39 pm »
What is "saved" if not saved from damnation?

A fair point.  Going back to what Bakker said about there being Redemption, Damnation and Oblivion, I just wanted to be clear that I don't think he is Redeemed at all, simply having just staved off Damnation somehow.  Not really all that different than, say, what Shaeönanra did in the matter-of-fact, rather than in actual practice.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Madness

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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 03:01:44 pm »
So...let's guess at the final fate of our Lord and Prophet.

Do you think he is hanging from the statues hip in the other head?

I need to read the canon artifact to be sure but this is my bet.

For myself, I think he is, himself, the Head On A Pole.  His spirit is tortured in the Outside, but his head is on the statue's belt, and he is not dead, so the Hundred cannot truly torture him.  I think those scenes were flash forwards to this time.

I do like this and it's seeded within TGO's Nau-Cayuti Dream and Achamian's explanation of Shauriatas to Mimara afterwords.
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themerchant

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 03:04:30 pm »
What salted then when the chorae touched Kellhus? If you touch a dead mage with a chorae does it still salt?

Walter

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 04:44:50 pm »
His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.

Francis Buck's Crush

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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2017, 05:01:52 pm »
I think that Kellhus is gone for good. I am interested in seeing what will exactly happen in the Outside to him however, I don't think he will do anything important to the World.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2017, 05:09:02 pm »
His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.

The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.

I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body.  But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark?  So would it salt?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2017, 05:39:41 pm »
I think he's in the Outside somewhere which means was always in the outside for the entire series since time doesn't exist there as a strictly linear concept.

I still believe he's on the path of TTT which is to become an Unmoved soul.  If he becomes Ciphrang or a God to reach back to his past and condition it for his mortal self, then that's a paradox that fulfills the criteria of an unmoved soul.

He's either  Ajokli, Onkis and/or the head on a pole.

themerchant

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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2017, 06:28:16 pm »
His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.

The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.

I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body.  But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark?  So would it salt?

That's what i'm getting at. Seeing if any clues to what happened by looking at what salted.

Ajokli had control of Kellhus during the last whelming? Kelemonas notices Kellhus levitates using no sorcery. So gods seem to be markless, but at the same point everyone notices his mark, Akka notices is just after that.

jurble

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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2017, 08:49:30 pm »
Kellhus is now a baby, you noobs.