[TUC Spoilers] Kellhus and future stories

  • 67 Replies
  • 8586 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2017, 02:56:38 pm »
I'm about to make a thread somewhere called "Building Healthy Relationships", and start moving posts to it :P . Lets not derail the topic any more, though I do appreciate the enthusiasm for bridge building.

:)
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Walter

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2017, 03:04:17 pm »
"I think asking ourselves why Serwë is damned (if she really is damned) is probably pretty tellin"

It feels like the answer to this is just that the world is a granary and souls are the bread.  Like, damnation may well be a much less moral process than the people of Earwa think.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2017, 08:28:45 am »
His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.

The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.

I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body.  But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark?  So would it salt?

Only just noticed this thread, so maybe this has been answered already, but... fairly sure the soul is in the brain. Koringhus was musing on this in TGO - the Dunyain surgeons noticed its absence in the brains of sranc.
You are the fist that beats us.

codebread

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2017, 12:43:59 am »
His body, and Ajokli's head, if I'm guessing right.

The confusing thing, that we have no unserstanding of is how the Mark, your soul and your body are exactly related.

I mean, presumably the soul carries the Mark, which is tied to your body.  But if one's soul isn't in the body, does the body still have the Mark?  So would it salt?

Only just noticed this thread, so maybe this has been answered already, but... fairly sure the soul is in the brain. Koringhus was musing on this in TGO - the Dunyain surgeons noticed its absence in the brains of sranc.

Oh man, if that's the case then I think there's some serious evidence for the whole "The real Kellhus is the other head" theory. Assuming Kellhus could find a way to separate his head from his body without dying... which seems to be the case if we believe the Decapitant entry.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 946
    • View Profile
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2017, 02:53:45 am »
yeah the Confluence is what the Dunyain called it.

Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2017, 04:17:09 am »
There is no concensus on Earwan metaphysics relating to the soul. That doesn't mean we can't have a formal understanding, because the series quite deliberately illustrates observable effects and we have many clarifications direct from Scott.

My take on the metaphysics, as they pertains to souls, and the 'Confluence'.
Quote
confluence
ˈkɒnflʊəns
noun
the junction of two rivers, especially rivers of approximately equal width

Meaning has a physical effect in the Earwa - although is serves to transcend mundane physics. The Outside is separated from the World by it's non-physical nature, not it's location. the point where the Outside overlaps the world is along the boundaries of physical stuff, like Cnaiur's skin or the surface of the ground. The ability to see the 'half-real' is what the few possess. Only those that can see the Onta can see the Mark - because the Mark reveals where meanings have been tampered with from 'inside' the World  - it looks different.

So, the bifurcate folds of the brain are a natural place to find where to soul 'intersects' with the body across the boundaries. It's why the light from sorcery comes from inside the skull. Handily, this means you just need swap heads in order to transport the soul. Think of the Larvals, the Inchoroi Grafting new bodies and creating synthese (without the Confluence) as well as the Decapitants. It all adds up.

When it comes to the question of souls and Damnation, one should first ask where all meaning comes from? Souls are born ignorant (ideally) but when they die and return to the Outside they have subjectively experienced and created an entire life of meaning. Some of it remains in the World, bleeding into the boundaries and creating an aggregate to the boundary layers of reality (i.e. history)- sometimes creating haunted places and even Topoi like Mengedda.

The problem for souls is that suffering is the most multitudinous and potent type of meaning that they generate, propagate and share through the Daimos. Everybody suffers and everybody creates suffering for others. Even the redeemed, like Esme, have got a bunch of suffering and sin that comprises their identity.

So ... prior to gaining entry to one of the hundred Heavens, such a soul must be shriven. Where then does their suffering go? Into the pit - Ciphrang are keen for any experience and it seems like the weakest 'demon-level agencies' subsist on the most abundant type of meaning - suffering. Thus, 100 hells for every Heaven, and part of everyone is Damned and goes into Hell. Seems like it's just about where the majority of your ego ends up.

However, there are several examples of people who are already Ciphrang before the die. Kosoter, Serwa and C'nauir are all revealed to be Ciphrang by the Judging Eye (althought C'naiur is somewhat more). So these are souls whose ego will make the jump to becoming an Agency within the Outside - a Hunger rather than Fodder (if we can depend on Kellhus' revelations at the Inverse Fire).
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 04:32:15 am by Cüréthañ »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2017, 02:11:30 pm »
There is no concensus on Earwan metaphysics relating to the soul. That doesn't mean we can't have a formal understanding, because the series quite deliberately illustrates observable effects and we have many clarifications direct from Scott.

Preach :).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Woden

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2017, 06:50:55 pm »
Is it possible that operates with Kellhus some kind of "ascendancy" as in the Malaz saga of Erikson?
I don't know if there is a real paral·lelism but to me Kellhus is so Kellanved (using a malazan analogy) to be (really) dead by a childish intervention.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.