[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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« on: July 19, 2017, 10:35:35 pm »
I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'

I will disagree and put a pin in it until this until I read the book.

And as I mentioned in earlier post, the description of a 'descending hunger' sounds A LOT like how Ajokli has been portrayed so far (raiding the granary and all). The bold font hadn't started at that point and I very strongly suspect that was Ajokli talking.

+1

I rule out Kellhus being on the Outside by the fact that Ajokli can not find him after the salting. If Kellhus was dead and on the Outside then Ajokli could see him and there is no reason for the Cnaiur possession. Even if we suppose Cnaiur was possessed by Gilgaol instead, then that still leaves the problem as to why he can't see Kellhus on the Outside.

It's funny because though it's apparent that Ajokli seems to possess Cnaiur, I don't actually attribute that dialogue to Ajokli. I'm quibbly, of course - though as far as I'm concerned much less than others are with other thinkenearing and finagling.

Though, isn't it interesting that Kelmomas as No-God hanging above Ajokli exactly mirrors Ajokli's Idol above Kelmomas in TJE prologue?
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 01:06:32 am »
It's funny because though it's apparent that Ajokli seems to possess Cnaiur, I don't actually attribute that dialogue to Ajokli. I'm quibbly, of course - though as far as I'm concerned much less than others are with other thinkenearing and finagling.

Though, isn't it interesting that Kelmomas as No-God hanging above Ajokli exactly mirrors Ajokli's Idol above Kelmomas in TJE prologue?

I can see your stance on the Cnaiur dialogue (monologue?). He easily could have said and meant that himself and it would be consistent with both his character and speech that we've seen so far. After a quick browse through the relevant section, I think the speaker switches from Cnaiur -> Ajokli during the paragraph describing his horns appearing. That is also when the Sranc horde are described as starting to part away from him. Then very next line says he "roared with no human voice". Looks like as good a point as any for the point of full possession and a speaker switch.

And I hadn't considered the mirrored imagery with Kelmomas and the Ajokli idol, but I like that a lot. I had even reconsidered the idol scene after the No-God reveal, all I put together was that Ajokli would have had no clue Kelmomas was there talking to him! Just a beetle randomly losing legs and making circles (if he was paying attention to that at all).

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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 04:23:51 am »
Well, presumably Kelmomas may well have been visible to Ajokli at that stage, because he had not yet killed Samarmas and therefore possessed a different soul.

Cnaiur was very unlikely to simply have been possessed, due to a range of factors.
 
A few of the most important;
  • the scene is after Resumption -- no souls may pass, and the soul that encounters Him passes no further -- the Gods bay silently at the gate. Ajokli and the rest are supposed to be blind to the world when the No-god walks.
  • possession is simply not how the god's operate. They cannot act directly like that. In the case of Kellhus it is an exception. He is a diamotic sorcerer with sorcerous pacts and artifacts stood on the very threshholds of Hell and the cycle of souls remains open. But not so for Cnaiur.
  • Cnaiur himself is a type of Ciphrang (according to the Judging Eye), bearing thousands of souls on his skin. Can a god possess a demon? I think not.

Nevertheless, a very important scene. I was expecting Kellhus to make a play for some type of Godly ascension, but to witness Cnaiur just drop trousers, hulk out and turn into Ajokli was a high point of this second series for me, one of my top 10 reading experiences.

For me, it provided answers; to the Narindar's question in WLW. And the question of how the Celmoman Prophecy was delivered (given that it couldn't have been delivered by the Gods from the Outside during the First Apocalypse for the same primary reason listed above). And why Ajokli is obsessed with the Anasurimbors.

As for Khellus' fate? Well ... pure speculation, but sometimes the dead bounce, after all.

**edited for clarity
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 04:49:07 am by Crtha »
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 01:12:51 pm »
I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'

If that's the case then Kellhus talks in bold in the "the lament" chapter as well, when he reveals the arc to his believer kings by cutting a hole in the tent. So by that logic, Ajokli is flitting in and out of Kellhus at various points when he is written in bold in the book.

Akka speaks in bold as well in the last chapter.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 01:14:58 pm by themerchant »

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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 06:18:43 pm »
This is from Quick Reply with me copying and pasting and doing the quoting. If I choose the quote feature, I just get blank where I should be able to post with the quote. Matter of fact, Quick Reply is only thing working for me.

Is anyone else having these problems? BFK did mention the modify function wasn't working on his phone. Please let Wilshire or I know in this thread.

I can see your stance on the Cnaiur dialogue (monologue?). He easily could have said and meant that himself and it would be consistent with both his character and speech that we've seen so far. After a quick browse through the relevant section, I think the speaker switches from Cnaiur -> Ajokli during the paragraph describing his horns appearing. That is also when the Sranc horde are described as starting to part away from him. Then very next line says he "roared with no human voice". Looks like as good a point as any for the point of full possession and a speaker switch.

Indeed. More thoughts to come from Future Madness.

Well, presumably Kelmomas may well have been visible to Ajokli at that stage, because he had not yet killed Samarmas and therefore possessed a different soul.

Good point.

A few of the most important;
- the scene is after Resumption -- no souls may pass, and the soul that encounters Him passes no further -- the Gods bay silently at the gate. Ajokli and the rest are supposed to be blind to the world when the No-god walks.

This is inaccurate, no? The Hundred, anyhow, are blind to the No-God, not the world. They just attribute all the death to human on human violence?

Also, across the seven books and at least my reading of PON Glossary, as I still haven't read TUC canon artifact, we know that Ajokli behaves by different rules than the rest of the Hundred.

Digressing, it also raises the question of what the Ajokli Narindar in the Warrior's WLW vision meant when he suggested that Ajokli sees what the other Gods do not because it clearly didn't mean the No-God as was the long-held suspicion by readers.

- possession is simply not how the god's operate. They cannot act directly like that. In the case of Kellhus it is an exception. He is a diamotic sorcerer with sorcerous pacts and artifacts stood on the very threshholds of Hell and the cycle of souls remains open. But not so for Cnaiur.

Quibbling on my part but I attribute that line about "making pacts with the Pit" (paraphrasing badly) to Ajokli, not Kellhus.

Nevertheless, a very important scene. I was expecting Kellhus to make a play for some type of Godly ascension, but to witness Cnaiur just drop trousers, hulk out and turn into Ajokli was a high point of this second series for me, one of my top 10 reading experiences.

I loved it too.

For me, it provided answers ... And the question of how the Celmoman Prophecy was delivered (given that it couldn't have been delivered by the Gods from the Outside during the First Apocalypse for the same primary reason listed above). And why Ajokli is obsessed with the Anasurimbors.

Well, again I forewarned people that MG's teasers reflected his interpretation of the text, but he's sure that Ajokli is responsible for delivering the Celmomian Prophecy.

I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'

If that's the case then Kellhus talks in bold in the "the lament" chapter as well, when he reveals the arc to his believer kings by cutting a hole in the tent. So by that logic, Ajokli is flitting in and out of Kellhus at various points when he is written in bold in the book.

Akka speaks in bold as well in the last chapter.

I'd have to check but there are very subtle formatting differences. I'd like to compare Yatwer's interaction with Psatma in TJE and with Sorweel in WLW to Ajokli's God-Mode in the Golden Room in TUC because I think they differ from your latter two examples, which I believe to be just sorcerous megaphone Cants.

Serwe is a ciphrang as well as seen by Mimara.

Damned, not Ciphrang, right?

I think it's as simple as 'Ajokli speaks in bold font.'

Don't we get examples of Kellhus doing seemingly magically acts without sorcery before the speech starts to use bold font?

We do, Kel notices that Kellhus is levitating without any sorcery, during the last whelming(last one, kellhus knew ;) ) Which sort of reminded me of the Wheel of time, one power and true power distinction. One can be sensed one can't.

Indeed, without the Mark. Interesting.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 06:24:30 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 09:11:20 pm »
I am a believer that Ajokli inhabited Cnair and was seeking Kelly is. Can't find him in hell because he is in his little oasis (or he is Mimara's babe.). It makes tons if thematic sense. Cnair is described as a Prince of Hate, who better for Ajokli to inhabit in such short notice. And, Cnair not seeing the No-God is proof that its a God inhabiting Cnair.

I do not think that is Ajokli the entire time in the Golden room, I agree the bolded us specifically Ajokli. And, I don't buy Kelly is hanging as a decapitant, because that was Kelly is that saw Kel, since the Gods are blind to the Ni-God. It doesn't mean it wasn't part if Kellhus's plan though. We have him goading Esme to release Kel, he knows Kel us a abimination, ergo No-God, yet doesn't kill him. It seems as if it was part if his plan. And, the surprise was a ruse to trick the Trickster. I wholeheartedly believe Kellhua to be in the Outside, hidden from the Gods. Ready to wage war for the souls of Earwa. Otherwise, the Jelly is dreams are senseless. He is without the values in the dreams because he is no longer under god entanglement.
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 09:20:39 pm »
No i believe the phrase is a ciphrang for serwe from Mimara's point of view.

"sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future,showering the earth with death- a witch ,wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon her burns"

Interesting.

I do not think that is Ajokli the entire time in the Golden room, I agree the bolded us specifically Ajokli. And, I don't buy Kelly is hanging as a decapitant, because that was Kelly is that saw Kel, since the Gods are blind to the Ni-God. It doesn't mean it wasn't part if Kellhus's plan though. We have him goading Esme to release Kel, he knows Kel us a abimination, ergo No-God, yet doesn't kill him. It seems as if it was part if his plan. And, the surprise was a ruse to trick the Trickster. I wholeheartedly believe Kellhua to be in the Outside, hidden from the Gods. Ready to wage war for the souls of Earwa. Otherwise, the Jelly is dreams are senseless. He is without the values in the dreams because he is no longer under god entanglement.

I'll have to play close attention as I read the canon artifact (who I am kidding, I'm going to fixate on it line-by-line ;)) but I think the Decapitants entry suggests that it doesn't matter whether Kellhus' head or Ajokli's is on Kellhus' shoulders in the Golden Room. The Decapitants entry suggests to me that Ajokli tried to take-over at Mengedda and save himself a trip to Golgotterath if he could but the topoi at Mengedda (which we are led to believe is the second deepest in the world next to Golgotterath) wasn't enough.

Firmly in the Kellhus is stuck in the other decapitant camp - though, I will say I do find MG's (and I believe H's) suggestion that Kellhus is Ciphrang-Malowebi neat, if improbable.
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Crtha

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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 11:39:48 pm »

A few of the most important;
- the scene is after Resumption -- no souls may pass, and the soul that encounters Him passes no further -- the Gods bay silently at the gate. Ajokli and the rest are supposed to be blind to the world when the No-god walks.

This is inaccurate, no? The Hundred, anyhow, are blind to the No-God, not the world. They just attribute all the death to human on human violence?

Also, across the seven books and at least my reading of PON Glossary, as I still haven't read TUC canon artifact, we know that Ajokli behaves by different rules than the rest of the Hundred.

Digressing, it also raises the question of what the Ajokli Narindar in the Warrior's WLW vision meant when he suggested that Ajokli sees what the other Gods do not because it clearly didn't mean the No-God as was the long-held suspicion by readers.

My point here is that souls may not pass. If babies are still born it is because there is restriction to the entry of souls from the source to the World. Through the Dreams anmd other references, we are told that Mog takes the souls of those that die. e.g. Skafra says to Seswatha that the no-god ate Celmomas. However, sorcery still works -- the implication being that souls within the world can still reach the outside indirectly but that the organic connections that govern the cycle of souls are blocked by the Object.

It is stated that the purpose of the No-god is to seal the Outside so many times and in so many ways that it is hard for me to see why people are obtuse to the fact that a God running about ipso facto shows that it has failed.

- possession is simply not how the god's operate. They cannot act directly like that. In the case of Kellhus it is an exception. He is a diamotic sorcerer with sorcerous pacts and artifacts stood on the very threshholds of Hell and the cycle of souls remains open. But not so for Cnaiur.

Quibbling on my part but I attribute that line about "making pacts with the Pit" (paraphrasing badly) to Ajokli, not Kellhus.

You think Kellhus has not made pacts then? The decapitants are clearly bound to his service, are they not?

Quibbling aside, my point relates to comparing how the gods are said to function within the World, the ways in which we are shown their interactions, and the rather obvious differences of Khellus' Diamotic efforts.

For me, it provided answers ... And the question of how the Celmoman Prophecy was delivered (given that it couldn't have been delivered by the Gods from the Outside during the First Apocalypse for the same primary reason listed above). And why Ajokli is obsessed with the Anasurimbors.

Well, again I forewarned people that MG's teasers reflected his interpretation of the text, but he's sure that Ajokli is responsible for delivering the Celmomian Prophecy.

I'm unaware of MG's teasers for the most part.

I do think that the twists of TUC have been largely unappreciated thus far because many posters seem too intent on interpreting events through the lens of their expectations.
After reflection, it seems obvious to me that Aspect Emperor is hugely concerned with the story of Ajokli. Indeed, it was only after entertaining the

The simplest explanation for what happens at the end of TUC seems entirely overlooked. Prince of Nothing tells the story of Kellhus' rise to power. Aspect Emperor shows the birth of a God and the return of the No-god at the end of the world.

Ajokli is different from the other Gods because he is born outside of time - after the Resumption. The gods exist 'all at once' so it does not matter when the original soul that they are seeded in 'births' their existence, obviously Ajokli is unique. Presumably he does not have access to the collection of aggregate experience he has harvested prior to Resumption at the time of his birth, but -- thanks to his manipulations -- he is immanent during the Apocalypse.

Entertain this interpretation and the narrative structure of Aspect Emperor slowly starts to makes complete sense. The Judging Eye was never primarily concerned with Kellhus, it has manifested to witness the end of the world and the birth of a God. Kelmomas is Ajokli's narindar -- or are we really to believe that he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to defeat Yatwer's White Luck not once but twice, and then is critical to Kellhus' betrayal AND ensuring that Resumption happens? I'm 100% that Ajokli knew he was there because he put him there, despite what Malowebi, the Consult and Kelmomas think.

Kellhus and the Consult were tricked by Ajokli. Faced with the prospect of Damnation, Kellhus seems to have accepted that Ajokli would intercede with his soul and that he would become one of Ajokli's ciphrang in the Outside - effectively aiming for the most hellish version of redemption in the Outside, a far cry from Chalahal (refer Glossary) but probably the best he could aim for. Perhaps he has escaped Ajokli by contingency, certainly, there are signs that this is the case. But the Consult are about to deliver a feast to Ajokli and he, alone of the Gods, stands to profit. In truth, it appears the remaining Mutilated are Ajokli's angels of the Apocalypse - the four horns/brothers.

Finally, if you look at the glossary entry for the Incu Holinais, you will find a rather startlingly different interpretation for the origins of the Inchoroi. Ajencis argues that they are not aliens, but rather sent from Hell by Ajokli. His refutation of them as a star-faring race is interesting because from an astrophysical perspective it actually makes a fair bit of sense - from his reasoning, it turns out that the stars from Earwa are positionally static (apparently excluding the Nail) and NOT analogous to our own. At the very least, there are no planets and Earwa does not orbit it's sun.

The fact that this little bit is in the glossary indicates to me that my view of events is at least intended to be interpretable in this way.

**edit: formatting appears screwed up on Tapatalk, not sure why.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 01:29:43 am by Crtha »
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 05:13:25 am »
My point here is that souls may not pass.

...

It is stated that the purpose of the No-god is to seal the Outside so many times and in so many ways that it is hard for me to see why people are obtuse to the fact that a God running about ipso facto shows that it has failed.

Granted on the former.

On the latter I don't think we know enough:

Firstly, it's hinted that Ajokli isn't constrained as the other Gods are and can act and behave differently than the rest of the Hundred. Secondly, we don't know that the Gods can't act or influence the world during the No-God's advent, just that they can't perceive the No-God.

You think Kellhus has not made pacts then? The decapitants are clearly bound to his service, are they not?

On the former, I do not. I think Ajokli has made pacts. I don't take it as apparent that Ajokli is the ruler of Hell (especially, not that I can square this with any personal understanding, given that a certain number of readers assume that the Hundred are just "bigger Ciphrang"). As I've said, I think Ajokli has "struck deals with the Pit," (badly paraphrasing) not Kellhus.

On the latter, as per Proyas' memory of Kellhus' words in WLW (fuck, I wish I had my books with me): Kellhus has the Daimotic ability to seize the Ciphrang as a sorcerer, not a priest (badly paraphrasing Proyas' reminisces on the decapitants just before they meet with the Nonman Embassy). Kellhus doesn't need Ajokli or deals or whathaveyou to take on individual Ciphrang and bend them to his will.

Or collect them as pokemon as FB eloquently put it.

I do think that the twists of TUC have been largely unappreciated thus far because many posters seem too intent on interpreting events through the lens of their expectations.

Indeed.

...

I'll have to wait until I read the canon artifact and can quote properly before I tackle that, friend Crtha. Good to read you again, by the way :).

**edit: formatting appears screwed up on Tapatalk, not sure why.

No doubt further issues of our new theme. Working on it :-\.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 05:15:51 am by Madness »
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 05:40:51 am »
the quote is omething like "there are two species of revelation friend, those that sieze and those that are siezed, one is the province of priests one of sorcerors

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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 07:23:51 am »
It appears we aren't quite on the same page vis a vis my use of the word 'pact'. I was simply inferring contracts of service between Diamotic sorcerers and entities that dwell within the Outside.

Obviously, there is a problem in that all of the 'pacts' we see demonstrated end up being little more than relegating one party to provide service at the direction of the other with only a vague promise of delivery of a soul in return.

My understanding is that Kellhus has a deal (pact) with Ajokli, but the Trickster God HAS to betray him, in accordance with his nature.

Quote
I have walked the infernal deep ... the Anasrimbor said, either unaware or unconcerned. I have struck treaties with the Pit.

Bakker, R. Scott (2017-07-06). The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 7525-7526). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.


Why else does Ajokli immeadiately start trying to seduce the Consult instead of obliterating them? In fact, I believe he is simply playing for time until Kelmomas arrives in position in order to kill Kellhus. But perhaps I should save my appraisal of who won and lost for a more appropriate thread, I fear I digress to much.

More generally, I would refer again to the Glossary entry (that I referenced up thread), where the Daimos is also called 'nomancy', and suggest combining that with the nuance added by the Glossary to the Metagnosis for some insight into Kellhus and Ajokli's antics with the Daimos.

The Daimos is not simply about summoning Ciphrang, perhaps we should look more closely at it's metaphysical attributes.

p.s. thanks Madness, appreciate the acknowledgement ;)
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 02:53:25 pm »
the quote is omething like "there are two species of revelation friend, those that sieze and those that are siezed, one is the province of priests one of sorcerors

Thanks, themerchant. Gall, you're like the better me. Though, you know... page numbers ;).

It appears we aren't quite on the same page vis a vis my use of the word 'pact'. I was simply inferring contracts of service between Diamotic sorcerers and entities that dwell within the Outside.

Obviously, there is a problem in that all of the 'pacts' we see demonstrated end up being little more than relegating one party to provide service at the direction of the other with only a vague promise of delivery of a soul in return.

Yeah, we're using the word the same, it's the difference in interpretations that's confounding us.

Iyokus never made a "pact" with the Ciphrang. Daimos is exploitative. You don't have to reason with the Ciphrang and make a deal, outside of the baseline assumption that they'll "keepeth you for eternity" (badly paraphrasing as per TWP) once you summon them with the Daimos.

My understanding is that Kellhus has a deal (pact) with Ajokli, but the Trickster God HAS to betray him, in accordance with his nature.

Quote
I have walked the infernal deep ... the Anasrimbor said, either unaware or unconcerned. I have struck treaties with the Pit.

Bakker, R. Scott (2017-07-06). The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 7525-7526). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

Thanks for quoting that.

Right there is exactly the line, among others, I think should be attributed to Ajokli, not Kellhus. He's not a God the same as the rest of the Hundred and has to deal with the Outside in some fashion that we don't yet understand, methinks - one that differs from the rules constraining the rest of the Hundred.

Why else does Ajokli immeadiately start trying to seduce the Consult instead of obliterating them?

Or five - neh, four - Dunyain would make excellent tools in creating hell on Earwa - not to mention the symmetry regarding the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (my fuck, I wish Happy Ent would join SA and grace us with his parodies, much less his actual insight :'().

More generally, I would refer again to the Glossary entry (that I referenced up thread), where the Daimos is also called 'nomancy', and suggest combining that with the nuance added by the Glossary to the Metagnosis for some insight into Kellhus and Ajokli's antics with the Daimos.

The Daimos is not simply about summoning Ciphrang, perhaps we should look more closely at it's metaphysical attributes.

I didn't get to mid-wif the Glossary at all, sadly. I'm waiting until I savour the canon artifact before I imprint it on the Greater Madness.

p.s. thanks Madness, appreciate the acknowledgement ;)

FB and I were talking about you just a week ago even. Missed you, friend.

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« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 02:55:13 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 04:01:58 pm »
Entertain this interpretation and the narrative structure of Aspect Emperor slowly starts to makes complete sense. The Judging Eye was never primarily concerned with Kellhus, it has manifested to witness the end of the world and the birth of a God. Kelmomas is Ajokli's narindar -- or are we really to believe that he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to defeat Yatwer's White Luck not once but twice, and then is critical to Kellhus' betrayal AND ensuring that Resumption happens? I'm 100% that Ajokli knew he was there because he put him there, despite what Malowebi, the Consult and Kelmomas think.

Curethan, glad to have you posting in full force.

This bit, specifically, is a fascinating interpretation to me. Its dramatically different, maybe entirely opposite, of how I viewed Kelmomas' and Ajokli's relationship, yet it makes a lot of sense. Will have to wait a few days before I can comment appropriately though.


btw, I agree, too much digression from the thread. Will probably move around some posts, maybe something more explicitly about Ajokli, rather than just Diamos generally.
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2017, 04:38:49 pm »
Entertain this interpretation and the narrative structure of Aspect Emperor slowly starts to makes complete sense. The Judging Eye was never primarily concerned with Kellhus, it has manifested to witness the end of the world and the birth of a God. Kelmomas is Ajokli's narindar -- or are we really to believe that he just happens to be in the right place at the right time to defeat Yatwer's White Luck not once but twice, and then is critical to Kellhus' betrayal AND ensuring that Resumption happens? I'm 100% that Ajokli knew he was there because he put him there, despite what Malowebi, the Consult and Kelmomas think.

Curethan, glad to have you posting in full force.

This bit, specifically, is a fascinating interpretation to me. Its dramatically different, maybe entirely opposite, of how I viewed Kelmomas' and Ajokli's relationship, yet it makes a lot of sense. Will have to wait a few days before I can comment appropriately though.


btw, I agree, too much digression from the thread. Will probably move around some posts, maybe something more explicitly about Ajokli, rather than just Diamos generally.
That's funny, because we are in agreement, Wilshire, and until curethan posted I seem to be the only person that thinks ajokli triumphant was the result of the golden room. It is in his nature to betray and he chose the most magnificent moment for kellhus to be betrayed. Granted, it seems plausible that kellhus is hiding in the other head, but I do not think kellhus has any more agency than malowebi does if he is trapped in the head. And even this seems somewhat implausible as ajokli manifested out of that head otoh, perhaps that leaves a vacuum.

I would point out that I think that the relationship between kellhus and ajokli changes our understanding of TTT and the three books of the aspect emperor. When kellhus sees the halos and recognizes "the light of delusion" delusion is functioning as an identifier synonym for ajokli, literally , "the light of ajokli"

Likewise when moenghus asks kellhus why kellhus refers to the consult with terms like wicked etc "these words are mechanisms of control" we now should understand that kellhus is using them because of ajoklis influence that this may in fact be a manifestation of ajokli within this encounter as he seeks understanding of that which is beyond the eschaton. And also yes they are mechanisms of control and ajokli is controlling kellhus.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 04:43:37 pm by locke »

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 05:04:55 pm »
Alright, attempted to split the topic and make it more relevant to the Ajokli discussion. I might have missed a couple of the opening posts, sorry!
Pre-split original topic on the Diamos is located here
One of the other conditions of possibility.