[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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Wilshire

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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 05:07:05 pm »
That's funny, because we are in agreement, Wilshire, and until curethan posted I seem to be the only person that thinks ajokli triumphant was the result of the golden room.

Kellhus' failure is clear for me which definitely puts us in the same field at least. Regarding who truly came out ahead, though,  I remain undecided, though a compelling case has certainly been made here.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 05:14:29 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2017, 12:23:07 am »
I just don't think we know enough about the differences in Ajokli's agency that sets him apart from the rest of the Hundred. Also, what Ajokli "sees that the other gods do not" (badly paraphrasing) isn't the No-God as has been a consensus among some readers for a long time?

What does Ajokli want? What was he going to do had the book ended with Ajokli and his Four Mutilated Apocalyptic Horsemen? The Mutilated suggested that Ajokli wanted to hide from the other gods and I've mentioned that the Momemn narrative arc across the first three books suggests that the Hundred were actively hunting Ajokli (the Demon, Ciphrang, etc.) and the mortal through whom he was attempting to make his play, which happens to be Kellhus.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2017, 02:20:28 am »
Cheers Wilshire and locke. ;)

First, Kellhus didn't really fail in the context of the Thousandfold Thought, anymore than Moenghus failed. They both did precisely what was needed and became surplus to requirements.

Quote
“You shall be my goad, the scourge of nations. Children shall keen for the simple rumour of your coming. Men shall rage and weep. And whatever horror and anguish you should sow, I shall reap.”

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Locations 7742-7743). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.


Ajokli didn't need the Consult to accede, he was just telling them how it is. He eliminates the Dunyain that grasps certain things about what he was doing and then let them think they had won.

Cue Cnaiur's ascension as Ajokli into the Whirlwind and we see that the Scylvendi were right all along. As they watch, Lokung strides into the End of the World, born as his siblings are stranded blind in the Outside that extends across the rest of history.

Regarding the blindness of the Hundred - it is stated that they rationalized other explanations for the events of the First Apocalypse, but the implication is quite clear that they could not understand it in truth nor intercede in any fashion. The no-god collapses subject and object, closes the gateways in preparation to seal them as it counts and extinguishes the subjective souls remaining inside. No more babies means the amount of Subject cannot increase, and means the Subjective can no longer manipulate the hinges of creation. (Note that standard sorcery still works because it relies on manipulating reality from its Objective side)

Prior to TUC the origin of the Celmoman Prophecy was hugely problematic, causing many readers to assume that the Hundred retained some agency - doesn't need to be the case anymore if Ajokli remains ensouled in the Objective.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 02:41:02 am by Cüréthañ »
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Yellow

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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2017, 06:17:28 pm »
Didn't know where to post this, bu thought here was as good a place as any.

Is/was/will Ajokli responsible for the halos? Throughout the majority of TAE and TTT, I thought the halos were a product of mass hysteria and/or wishful thinking - even on the part of Kellhus, who has been seeing them since TTT.

But since Ajokli seems to be the source of some sorcery-type effects without leaving a mark, is he also responsible for these?

On a related note... does the Daimos leave a mark? If not, I would say this is Outside-Kellhus retro-fitting halos onto events in the past.

That being said, when Proyas gave his big speech in TUC, I believe it's said that some thought they saw halos around him. So maybe I'm back to thinking it's mass hysteria.

Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?
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themerchant

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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 06:20:42 pm »
The clues in the lead up to the final confrontation for me are.

1. Ciphrang able to get around the control of the Daimos.

2. Same Ciphrang not able to find the soul in someone, maybe a skinspy or maybe a consequence of being in a deep topoi.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2017, 10:29:20 pm »
The Halos seem to be an extension of the Thousandfold Thought. Note that the halos that relate directly to operatives of the Thousandfold Thought are golden and Mimara's are silver. Different source in my mind.
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Yellow

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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2017, 05:52:45 am »
What does that mean, though? The Thousandfold Thought isn't a conscious entity. It can't do things. I'm not being purposefully irritating, I honestly don't know how you think TTT can cause halos to appear.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2017, 06:50:45 am »
Fair call. It's not an easy concept to grasp, I think. To my mind there are two possibilities.

The first is that it operates like a gestalt entity, taking agency from it's constituent pieces. Think of how a political party or corporation operates, except rooted in the subjective overlap of the literal noösphere that exists in Earwa. The halos are basically a magical form of brand recognition (representing associative thoughts - specifically humanity's self-perceived holy right to exist). In this fashion, it is an immanence in the world that extends from all the people in the Three Seas. An extension of the will of the unconscious God.

The other option is that it is just another flow of history (or darkness) that can be grasped and twisted to different purpose by agencies that manipulate the outside via the daimos. Perhaps Kellhus, more likely the Gods.
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Yellow

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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2017, 12:28:50 pm »
OK, we disagree completely, then. I think TTT is literally just a thought, concept, idea, methodology, goal, whatever.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2017, 01:36:33 pm »
OK, we disagree completely, then. I think TTT is literally just a thought, concept, idea, methodology, goal, whatever.

As far back as TTT (the book) this discussion has been around, and there's little space between the two concepts for understanding. I'm more on your side Yellow, if I'm honest, but there should probably be a new TTT discussion thread in our post-TUC world. For what its worth, post-TUC has begun to change my mind.

If you start from that as a base assumption, that it does exist as an agency of some kind (more like  a God than anything else), it makes the argument more clear - but without starting there there's little more else to be said :) .
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2017, 02:57:20 pm »
As far back as TTT (the book) this discussion has been around, and there's little space between the two concepts for understanding. I'm more on your side Yellow, if I'm honest, but there should probably be a new TTT discussion thread in our post-TUC world. For what its worth, post-TUC has begun to change my mind.

We have one of those, don't we?

[TUC Spoilers] The Thousandfold Thought
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
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CondYoke

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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2017, 05:59:19 pm »
The clues in the lead up to the final confrontation for me are.

1. Ciphrang able to get around the control of the Daimos.

2. Same Ciphrang not able to find the soul in someone, maybe a skinspy or maybe a consequence of being in a deep topoi.
The "hooded figure" is a nonman, by description "porcelain scalp"- but soulless...?

MSJ

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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2017, 06:03:36 pm »
Quote from:  CondYoke
The "hooded figure" is a nonman, by description "porcelain scalp"- but soulless...?

I must be the only one, but i took it as a hint that maybe his soul actually found oblivion.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2017, 07:07:21 pm »
Isn't it a pretty important point that the Nonman concept of oblivion is a sham though? At least according to Cet'ingira and the two others who saw the Inverse Fire.

Wilshire

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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2017, 07:13:30 pm »
Problem is, how do we know its a sham? The IF is as likely a lie as anything else. In fact, the IF seems suspiciously like a tool of Ajokli.
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