[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2017, 07:39:57 pm »
And just exactly why would Ajokli create a tool that motivates the closing off of the Outside, ending his feasting on souls?

Wilshire

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« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2017, 07:55:44 pm »
Its a tool that created endless millenium of war. How long have the Inchoroi warred against their fate, how many billions of souls reaped? What a feast that was! And how odd, that a race unaware of the existance of the Outside and of souls, should construct an artifact that but shows them their own damnation.

I didn't say he created the No-God ;) . That creation may indeed lie entirely with the Inchoroi/Consult and, if we are to believe the story, he can't even see it and would not have seen that the gifting of the IF would lead to that conclusion.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2017, 08:11:02 pm »
Its a tool that created endless millenium of war. How long have the Inchoroi warred against their fate, how many billions of souls reaped? What a feast that was! And how odd, that a race unaware of the existance of the Outside and of souls, should construct an artifact that but shows them their own damnation.

I didn't say he created the No-God ;) . That creation may indeed lie entirely with the Inchoroi/Consult and, if we are to believe the story, he can't even see it and would not have seen that the gifting of the IF would lead to that conclusion.
Well, the Inchoroi, or their progenitors, must've been quite aware of the outside since it was their scrutiny of the soul that led them to discover they were all damned. I don't know, it sounds a bit too far fetched to me that Ajokli created this thing, which must be as old as the Inchoroi themselves, maybe even having originated on their homeworld, with this master-plan in mind.

Yellow

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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2017, 08:25:32 pm »
^^ agreed.
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H

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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2017, 10:55:28 am »
The Inverse Fire and the ability to seek Oblivion can both be true, they are not mutually exclusive.

It says it somewhere in one of the books but I can't find the quote at the moment, that finding Oblivion is to walk a very narrow and difficult path.  Just because most fail, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

I don't believe that Kellhus lies when he says about the Inverse Fire:
Quote
“This artifact senses the continuity of the Now with our souls as they exist outside of time. It siphons it like sap, boils it into an image the Now can comprehend. The Fire burns true.”

The crux is probably how the Inverse Fire is the truth, but it isn't deterministic.  One could be damned in the Fire and still find Oblivion, it would just be incredibly hard.  It's not really a wonder than most chose he "easy" way out.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2017, 07:56:14 pm »
Its a tool that created endless millenium of war. How long have the Inchoroi warred against their fate, how many billions of souls reaped? What a feast that was! And how odd, that a race unaware of the existance of the Outside and of souls, should construct an artifact that but shows them their own damnation.

I didn't say he created the No-God ;) . That creation may indeed lie entirely with the Inchoroi/Consult and, if we are to believe the story, he can't even see it and would not have seen that the gifting of the IF would lead to that conclusion.
Well, the Inchoroi, or their progenitors, must've been quite aware of the outside since it was their scrutiny of the soul that led them to discover they were all damned. I don't know, it sounds a bit too far fetched to me that Ajokli created this thing, which must be as old as the Inchoroi themselves, maybe even having originated on their homeworld, with this master-plan in mind.

^^ agreed.

lol fair enough.

One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

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« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2017, 08:05:13 pm »
I've heard rumours that there's a Glossary entry implying that some Earwan theorists believe that Ajokli sent the Ark from the Outside, rather than from the Void.

But I'll have to wait until I read the end of the canon version - I'm fairly sure that the Mutilated give a pretty concise explanation as to why the Inchoroi specifically are doomed, as a sort of weapon race, to see themselves as Damned in the Inverse Fire no matter what they do.
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themerchant

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« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2017, 02:16:51 am »
Well they were built to heap damnation on themselves so that the inverse fire would be the perfect goad. Make something that does shit that damns it, give it a device that allows to see if they're damned. Start world hopping with big WUTTEAT and the Ark, each world is like a scratch card where you scratch away the silver by killing folk when you have 144k left you can see if you have won or not. The Ark knows there is a golden scratch card out there so keeps looking for it. Earwa is the $250,000 scratch card. The people of Earwa are the silver bit the Consult is coin you use to scratch it.


TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2017, 11:20:36 am »
I've heard rumours that there's a Glossary entry implying that some Earwan theorists believe that Ajokli sent the Ark from the Outside, rather than from the Void.

The entry says that some refer to the Horns of Golgotterath as two of the four horns of Ajokli.  But, remember, Kellhus blasted the Canted Horn clean off with a laser weapon.  This suggests he has perhaps injured or damaged Ajokli, or gained some other sort of victory over him.
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« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2017, 01:38:07 pm »
The entry says that some refer to the Horns of Golgotterath as two of the four horns of Ajokli.  But, remember, Kellhus blasted the Canted Horn clean off with a laser weapon.  This suggests he has perhaps injured or damaged Ajokli, or gained some other sort of victory over him.

Sure, by that premise.

How awesome was Kellhus taking the Canted Horn down on the Second Horde! Or even just him taking on the Second Horde to give the Ordeal time to take the blasted fortifications?!
The Existential Scream
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2017, 08:39:53 pm »
The entry says that some refer to the Horns of Golgotterath as two of the four horns of Ajokli.  But, remember, Kellhus blasted the Canted Horn clean off with a laser weapon.  This suggests he has perhaps injured or damaged Ajokli, or gained some other sort of victory over him.

Sure, by that premise.

How awesome was Kellhus taking the Canted Horn down on the Second Horde! Or even just him taking on the Second Horde to give the Ordeal time to take the blasted fortifications?!

It was fucking amazing!
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

themerchant

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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2017, 09:36:34 pm »
And Aurang trying to kill him just after by dropping a massive rock on his head from above, lol.

On the absolute, serwe the skin spy mentions that the nonman practice ellision(sp?)

Partial quote "the non-man seek the absolute"..."they practice Elision, thinking they can hide from Judgment, and so pass into oblivion unseen, find absolution in the absolute. The Dunyain use the same word the Kuniuri inherited from the nonmen,but enamoured of intellect and reason, they believe it to be a goal

So are the Dunyain just trying to slip between the gods as well, Malowebi has a brief rundown of what the "Absolute" means as well, when he hears the mutilated and K talking about it.

I don't know what it means either in any context really.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 09:38:17 pm by themerchant »

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2017, 08:02:44 am »
And just exactly why would Ajokli create a tool that motivates the closing off of the Outside, ending his feasting on souls?

What if the Consult ends up locking them self in with Ajokli? (I don't really buy that interpretation either, just speculating)

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2017, 08:17:29 am »
Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?

I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I think Kellhus originally was an actual prophet, which would explain the halos. Also, a couple of times he also just says stuff and later it turns out to be true, to his surprise, like Saubons first battle. At one point he says something along the lines of "I am TRUTH! Why would I not choose the vessel that can reach the most souls?"  to Akka seemingly channeling the god. Another piece of evidence is how he uses words like "wicked" when talking with his father, which makes no sense to Moe sr.

We know that actions in Earwa can change the way gods perceive things. Because White Luck failed Yatwer now believes he was always gonna fail no matter what, even though she believed he was always gonna succeed no matter what earlier. These changes is directly or indirectly due to the No-God since the gods can't see it. I think that somewhere between the Prince of Nothing and the Aspect-Emperor, he stopped doing what the god told him because what the god told him makes no sense when you factor in the existence of the No-God. This changed the way the gods views him, and now they think he is and has always been a false prophet. But like the Judging Eye, if you get prophet powers once you keep them forever even if the gods no longer think you are one.

Nichamian

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« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2017, 10:06:19 am »
Hello! First post so be gentle...

I read and reread the Golden Room many times to try and unpick the ambiguity of Kellhus and Ajokli's relationship. I feel they are analogues of one another - both separate from their 'race', both great decievers and quick to betray, both have crossed into each other's 'realm'.

As stated by Bakker, Ajokli has been involved with Kellhus since the Circumfixion, but Kellhus didn't know it was Ajokli until later ('light of delusion'). Kellhus himself tells Proyas that he has been to Hell. I believe this is literal and that he 'struck treaties' there - unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I imagine their relationship to be a mirror of Kellhus crossing the Stepe with Cnaiur - trackless/conditioned ground, Cnaiur's constant vigilance against Kellhus - this could be why Kellhus repeats 'there is a head on a pole...'

(I apologise for the stream of consciousnes - I'm typing this on a phone on a train)

Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
 
Many thanks for letting me join, and thank you for all the insights that without which I would be lost while trying to make sense of these novels!

N