[profgrape]

Hello! First post so be gentle...

I read and reread the Golden Room many times to try and unpick the ambiguity of Kellhus and Ajokli's relationship. I feel they are analogues of one another - both separate from their 'race', both great decievers and quick to betray, both have crossed into each other's 'realm'.

As stated by Bakker, Ajokli has been involved with Kellhus since the Circumfixion, but Kellhus didn't know it was Ajokli until later ('light of delusion'). Kellhus himself tells Proyas that he has been to Hell. I believe this is literal and that he 'struck treaties' there - unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I imagine their relationship to be a mirror of Kellhus crossing the Stepe with Cnaiur - trackless/conditioned ground, Cnaiur's constant vigilance against Kellhus - this could be why Kellhus repeats 'there is a head on a pole...'

(I apologise for the stream of consciousnes - I'm typing this on a phone on a train)

Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
 
Many thanks for letting me join, and thank you for all the insights that without which I would be lost while trying to make sense of these novels!

N

Welcome to TSA Nichamian!

It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?

[TLEILAXU]

Hello! First post so be gentle...

I read and reread the Golden Room many times to try and unpick the ambiguity of Kellhus and Ajokli's relationship. I feel they are analogues of one another - both separate from their 'race', both great decievers and quick to betray, both have crossed into each other's 'realm'.

As stated by Bakker, Ajokli has been involved with Kellhus since the Circumfixion, but Kellhus didn't know it was Ajokli until later ('light of delusion'). Kellhus himself tells Proyas that he has been to Hell. I believe this is literal and that he 'struck treaties' there - unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)
I imagine their relationship to be a mirror of Kellhus crossing the Stepe with Cnaiur - trackless/conditioned ground, Cnaiur's constant vigilance against Kellhus - this could be why Kellhus repeats 'there is a head on a pole...'

(I apologise for the stream of consciousnes - I'm typing this on a phone on a train)

Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?
 
Many thanks for letting me join, and thank you for all the insights that without which I would be lost while trying to make sense of these novels!

N

Welcome to TSA Nichamian!

It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?

Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.

[Madness]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Nichamian.

unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)

I wish we knew more about Ajokli's relationship with the Outside, and Hell specifically. I know it's poor logic but we can't yet disprove that Ajokli didn't need to assure the Outside or Ciphrang or Gods or whatever that he'd feed souls to the Outside if they let him make his play in Earwa.

Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?

Welcome to TSA Nichamian!

It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?

Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.

It seems to be telepathic - or Daimotic, or whichevery.

There's also the later instruction not to look at the Inverse Fire.

[Khaine]

Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?

My understanding is that since Ajoklis the trickster god has made a pact with Kellhus, he is giving him the ability to manifest such divine marks that will aid Kellhus in his quest, of whatever it is.

I still don't understand clearly what Ajoklis was hoping to achieve. I should re-read the relevant passage or the whole book for that matter. 

If my theory holds true it inverts the traditional prophet - hero trope, as the perceived divinity of Kellhus is down to his pact with the devil (or the most devilish divine power of Earwa).

So Kellhus is a Faust in a way and by selling his soul he gets the trappings of a divine prophet.

Now I read somewhere in this thread that Bakker confirmed that Kellhus since his crucifixion (circumfixion ok) has been in communion with Ajoklis. If this holds true, then for me a lot of things make sense, because it is after this incident that he starts having halos and speaking to the god (which initially thought was the No-God).

Which brings us back to the confrontation with Moenghus when Kellhus on purpose lies to his father telling him, that the No-God speaks to him. Maybe Kellhus knew that his father as a Dunyain would have thrown his lot with the Inchoroi and the Consult, that's why he lies to him and of course anticipates the Dosult, hence the need for a divine (infernal really) boost.

If only he could avoid being salted...

Also the trickster god in the end is unmade by the No-God, which sounds appropriate / fitting.

Wow long stream of consciousness post.

Feel feel to jump in!

[Sausuna]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Nichamian.

unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)

I wish we knew more about Ajokli's relationship with the Outside, and Hell specifically. I know it's poor logic but we can't yet disprove that Ajokli didn't need to assure the Outside or Ciphrang or Gods or whatever that he'd feed souls to the Outside if they let him make his play in Earwa.

Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?

Welcome to TSA Nichamian!

It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?

Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.

It seems to be telepathic - or Daimotic, or whichevery.

There's also the later instruction not to look at the Inverse Fire.

I actually need to double check this. I strongly recall the instruction to not look into the Inverse Fire was telepathic. But for some reason I think the conversation before they walk inside the Ark was out loud?

[profgrape]

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Nichamian.

unless we choose to believe Ajokli took over in the Golden Room unbidden I don't see another reading for the 'treaties' line (A Prince of Hell has no one to be making agreements with in Hell if Kellhus is removed from the idea.)

I wish we knew more about Ajokli's relationship with the Outside, and Hell specifically. I know it's poor logic but we can't yet disprove that Ajokli didn't need to assure the Outside or Ciphrang or Gods or whatever that he'd feed souls to the Outside if they let him make his play in Earwa.

Would someone be able to clarify a point for me - Malowebi observes the events that take place in the Golden Room from Kellhus' hip. At one point he thinks he hears a voice speaking to him alone, and he doesn't hear it again. Could Kellhus hear Malowebi, and communicate with him?

Welcome to TSA Nichamian!

It did appear that Kellhus had some kind of telepathic link with Malowebi. I'm unsure why Bakker chose to include it; maybe a hint for later?

Right before he enters the Golden Room, he says "Fear not Iswazi", but I'm not sure if he said it telepathically or aloud.

It seems to be telepathic - or Daimotic, or whichevery.

There's also the later instruction not to look at the Inverse Fire.

I actually need to double check this. I strongly recall the instruction to not look into the Inverse Fire was telepathic. But for some reason I think the conversation before they walk inside the Ark was out loud?

Here's the section where Malo is warned away from the Goad:

Wonder had him straining at the margins of his vision to decode the flames at first, for in no way could he sense the stain of sorcery in the unnatural burning.
Avert your eyes... a presence instructed.
Whether the voice was his own or belonged to the Aspect-Emperor he did not know, but it bent the arrow of his attention as if it were his own...

Seems like telepathy, maybe a form of Compulsion?

[TLEILAXU]

Basically... wtf was going on with the halos?

My understanding is that since Ajoklis the trickster god has made a pact with Kellhus, he is giving him the ability to manifest such divine marks that will aid Kellhus in his quest, of whatever it is.

I still don't understand clearly what Ajoklis was hoping to achieve. I should re-read the relevant passage or the whole book for that matter. 

If my theory holds true it inverts the traditional prophet - hero trope, as the perceived divinity of Kellhus is down to his pact with the devil (or the most devilish divine power of Earwa).

So Kellhus is a Faust in a way and by selling his soul he gets the trappings of a divine prophet.

Now I read somewhere in this thread that Bakker confirmed that Kellhus since his crucifixion (circumfixion ok) has been in communion with Ajoklis. If this holds true, then for me a lot of things make sense, because it is after this incident that he starts having halos and speaking to the god (which initially thought was the No-God).

Which brings us back to the confrontation with Moenghus when Kellhus on purpose lies to his father telling him, that the No-God speaks to him. Maybe Kellhus knew that his father as a Dunyain would have thrown his lot with the Inchoroi and the Consult, that's why he lies to him and of course anticipates the Dosult, hence the need for a divine (infernal really) boost.

If only he could avoid being salted...

Also the trickster god in the end is unmade by the No-God, which sounds appropriate / fitting.

Wow long stream of consciousness post.

Feel feel to jump in!

Did he lie to Moenghus though? Maybe he actually thought it was the No-God communicating with him at that point. It reminds me of the "I war against the God" thing. Does Kellhus think this is the No-God sending visions to him or does he know it's Ajokli?

[Madness]

...

On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.

Does Kellhus think this is the No-God sending visions to him or does he know it's Ajokli?

In TTT, if he's being honest with Moenghus, he thinks it's the former. As per Bakker's comments on the AMA, he doesn't ever realize it's Ajokli. In text this interpretation is bolstered by Kellhus' remarks to Proyas in TGO about how he no longer trusts the Voice or the Visions and how listening to it/them when it/they told him to kill his father was a mistake. In TUC, this is further addressed when Kellhus pulls Proyas up from being slung to talk to him about the Darkness moving him more and more.

[TaoHorror]

Darkness as in "what's before", or "the strings" or "evil"?

[profgrape]

...

On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.

Does Kellhus think this is the No-God sending visions to him or does he know it's Ajokli?

In TTT, if he's being honest with Moenghus, he thinks it's the former. As per Bakker's comments on the AMA, he doesn't ever realize it's Ajokli. In text this interpretation is bolstered by Kellhus' remarks to Proyas in TGO about how he no longer trusts the Voice or the Visions and how listening to it/them when it/they told him to kill his father was a mistake. In TUC, this is further addressed when Kellhus pulls Proyas up from being slung to talk to him about the Darkness moving him more and more.

I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time.   He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!? 

I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him.  But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

[Madness]

Darkness as in "what's before", or "the strings" or "evil"?

That Comes Before .

I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time.   He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!? 

I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him.  But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

Lol, we've had long talks about this. I know that fans out there find Bakker's AMA answers totally unprecedented by the text but I honestly don't experience the dissonance.

Kellhus was busy. One intellect and two hands, however distant his disciples. He went through varying stages of understanding the Visions (ultimately just electing to distrust them), mucked around with the Daimos as a tool against the Consult, and didn't have time to figure out about Ajokli specifically.

You know, little distracted, just out there trying to save the world . Focused, I'll bet Kellhus could have figured it out as he might have Kelmomas and Samarmus.

EDIT: As per your bold, Kellhus arguably fought the Holy War, straight into the Unification Wars, before immediately thereafter getting his hands on the Daimos. The incident on Mengedda could have been long before he stopped trusting the Visions or before he had a better understanding of the Daimos.

[profgrape]

Darkness as in "what's before", or "the strings" or "evil"?

That Comes Before .

I am *shocked* that Kellhus didn't realize it was Ajokli who had been manipulating him all this time.   He's the greatest intellect on the planet and yet, if the encyclopedia entry about the Decapitants is to be believed, Ajokli had hoodwinked him into removing his own head?!? 

I guess if Yatwer could make Sorweel hide from Kellhus, Ajokli's similarly capable of getting the better of him.  But I still find it hard to believe that Kellhus was resigned to his inevitable doom like the eponymous characters in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.

Lol, we've had long talks about this. I know that fans out there find Bakker's AMA answers totally unprecedented by the text but I honestly don't experience the dissonance.

Kellhus was busy. One intellect and two hands, however distant his disciples. He went through varying stages of understanding the Visions (ultimately just electing to distrust them), mucked around with the Daimos as a tool against the Consult, and didn't have time to figure out about Ajokli specifically.

You know, little distracted, just out there trying to save the world . Focused, I'll bet Kellhus could have figured it out as he might have Kelmomas and Samarmus.

EDIT: As per your bold, Kellhus arguably fought the Holy War, straight into the Unification Wars, before immediately thereafter getting his hands on the Daimos. The incident on Mengedda could have been long before he stopped trusting the Visions or before he had a better understanding of the Daimos.

That's the thing: I don't think Kellhus was hoodwinked.  At least, I think I don't think the outcome (his salting) was entirely unexpected...

[Khaine]

...

On Halos, Bakker explicitly denied us questions about halos at Zaudunyanicon... assuming this means they don't manifest because of Ajokli.

Interesting.

So simple question but I presume the answer is not. Where do these halos come from?

Is it some kind of magic? Illusion magic to give him extra charisma?
En mass hallucination by the masses?
Kellhus levelled up to Super Saiyan and his golden aura manifests in the physical universe?

 

Does it really it matter in the greater scheme?

But the idea that Kellhus behaved like a prophet - god - saint and he got the markings to prove it (like in the Wheel of Time when Rand receives his dragon tatoos if my memory serves me) is too seductive to simply let it go.

So was it Kellhus manipulating people to see these "divine" manifestations?

I can live with the idea that Kellhus did not know from the start that Ajokli was messing with his head and that maybe he thought he was communicating with the No-God.

Also going off a tangent, at some point Kellhus says that his thousand-fold thought fails him and all he perceives is darkness. Is it because of the effect of Ajokli taking him over and / or because a divine being is beyond the mundane the circuit of causation?

The blind spot to his immense mental faculty being a divine agent which is not subject to the rule that what comes before determines what comes after.

That would fit with the theme raised by other posters that this is a story about limits, blind spots and great powers being undone by things which they couldn't perceive, that is the unknown unknowns.

  (smiley is for my allusion to Donald Rumsfield while discussing Kellhus and Ajokli )

[Yellow]

So was it Kellhus manipulating people to see these "divine" manifestations?

No... Or at least, not at first. In TTT we have a POV from Kellhus in which he's unable to explain to himself where they come from. He remarks that they cast no shadow (from memory).

[Madness]

That's the thing: I don't think Kellhus was hoodwinked.  At least, I think I don't think the outcome (his salting) was entirely unexpected...

You haven't made that thread yet have you ?

Is it some kind of magic? Illusion magic to give him extra charisma?
En mass hallucination by the masses?
Kellhus levelled up to Super Saiyan and his golden aura manifests in the physical universe?

- I don't think so because on a similar note Bakker confirmed at ZDC that Kellhus levitating without the Mark in TUC was sorcery and I don't know why he'd admit that and not the haloes.
- Well, different characters see the haloes at different times, Serwe seeing them on Kellhus long before he learns sorcery or the Circumfixion. I think FB also brought up that characters in TUC "almost see them" on Proyas shortly before Kellhus betrays him.
- Quite possibly?