[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #225 on: November 06, 2017, 10:43:14 pm »
Why can't humanity survive and there also be the death of meaning?
I think this is what most of us believe will happen, i.e. the world will be reduced to the 144k, the World is shut, and humans repopulate. What's interesting is the manner in which this will happen, of which we have have little idea.

MSJ

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« Reply #226 on: November 06, 2017, 11:00:18 pm »
Wilshire,

Let me explain a little better, as I think you have me pegged wrong. I will always read anything that Bakker writes in this world. Hell, just his prose is enough to draw me in, let alone how he describes and so on. I love him. In a fucking huge fan boy too! I got a poster and patch to prove it! ;)

I don't need TNG to be anything. All I'm saying that the death of a world, the minutae of it, would be hard to pull off. Its 3 books man. That's a lot of death and despair.


I don't think we'll get much if anything from Momemn, remember it was hit by Momas. Not much left there. Truly interested in Zeum and Ciphrang Malowwbi. I wanna see Sarl and the boy. So much I want to see.

We can have the No-God defeated, lose meaning and the world still exists. That's what I want. Will I read it if its not that? Of course. Life ain't fair. You get what you get. I just hope its done well, is all.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #227 on: November 08, 2017, 06:28:31 pm »
Wilshire,

Let me explain a little better, as I think you have me pegged wrong.

Mostly just confused. Thanks for clarity :)

I will always read anything that Bakker writes in this world. Hell, just his prose is enough to draw me in, let alone how he describes and so on. I love him. In a fucking huge fan boy too! I got a poster and patch to prove it! ;)
That's not in question. You're like, what, #5 most posts all time by a thin margin.

I don't need TNG to be anything. All I'm saying that the death of a world, the minutae of it, would be hard to pull off. Its 3 books man. That's a lot of death and despair.

I guess that makes a bit more sense. But to me, Bakker took Kellhus from apprentice monk to Ruler of the World in 3 books, and from there to basically God-King in truth in another 4. I think TNG has plenty of space to more/less end the war. Caveat #1, I bet TNG will be longer than his 'planned' 2 books. Caveat #2, even though I think he could do it well, I don't think he will - its just not how I'm guessing the story will go.

I don't think we'll get much if anything from Momemn, remember it was hit by Momas. Not much left there. Truly interested in Zeum and Ciphrang Malowwbi. I wanna see Sarl and the boy. So much I want to see.

Lots of stories to fill pages. See, I forgot about Sarl. Maybe he's going to ne our anti-Smegal or something.

We can have the No-God defeated, lose meaning and the world still exists. That's what I want.
Ok I'm following now. This is not at all where I thought you were going.

Will I read it if its not that? Of course. Life ain't fair. You get what you get. I just hope its done well, is all.

Of course, and I'm sure we all want that.

Cheers!
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MSJ

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« Reply #228 on: November 08, 2017, 09:32:24 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
]Caveat #1, I bet TNG will be longer than his 'planned' 2 books. Caveat #2, even though I think he could do it well, I don't think he will - its just not how I'm guessing the story will go.

See, here is evidence that we're closer to the same ideas than previously thought. I tend to agree with both caveats. And, #2 is what my original post was basically about. So I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you think the story will be the end of Earwa. Basically, as Bakker himself said, a few Atrocity Tales. What I took from that, is that he's going to write from varying perspectives the awfulness of a dying world. And, as others pointed out in the first place, that's a high order he's placing on himself to do, and do well.

That's why, for the sake of sales, and to make it a more prominent series, I think he needs to go the opposite direction. He needs to show hope. He hasn't shown a whole lot. Redemption for mankind in the face of Monsters (Consult) and the death of a Godlike figure (Kellhus). Which, was where my original idea came from.

There are many ways for this to be done, and it not be all butterflies and rainbows. Kellhus is dead but not done. He can alter the Gods, or straight up kill them. The NG can be defeated and the Gods killed or shut, it doesn't matter really, and Mankind survive. It can still be bleak and Bakker as hell. And, I don't understand where people don't think there's a real chance the NG isn't just straight up defeated....for good. Mimara, and hell if that tapestry is just thrown in there for shits and giggles, I'll be hugely disappointed. Akka's dreams and in-world theories that the Heron Spear didn't even kill the NG. There is textual evidence that indeed man will win out, but the world will become meaningless/shut or what have you, altered by Kellhus to stop the damnation cycle. This is why I don't why everyone is all, "that would go against everything and be unicorns and daisies...". There's actual textual evidence for it to happen that way. I think Bakker left himself that option.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #229 on: November 08, 2017, 10:10:58 pm »
:Puts on Tinfoil Hat:

Quote from:  Wilshire
Lots of stories to fill pages. See, I forgot about Sarl. Maybe he's going to ne our anti-Smegal or something.

Unless, Bakker is huge fucking troll, he has said the following two statements and if I had time I'd find and quote. (But we do know these are things Bakker has said.)

1) We'll see Sarl again.
2) Kellhus is dead but not done.

Kellhus will have translocated his soul to the head tied in Sarl's beard, formerly known as The Captain. Boom! Heard it here first!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #230 on: November 08, 2017, 10:55:20 pm »
Kellhus will have translocated his soul to the head tied in Sarl's beard, formerly known as The Captain. Boom! Heard it here first!

Wow, so exciting! And what exactly will he be doing there?
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MSJ

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« Reply #231 on: November 08, 2017, 11:08:22 pm »
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Wow, so exciting! And what exactly will he be doing there?

One head is as good as the next and gets him out of the Ark. He meets the boy in the Woods...trains him the meta-gnosis/Psukhe/Daimos!

I said a tinfoil hat for a reason. ;)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #232 on: November 08, 2017, 11:53:19 pm »
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Wow, so exciting! And what exactly will he be doing there?

One head is as good as the next and gets him out of the Ark. He meets the boy in the Woods...trains him the meta-gnosis/Psukhe/Daimos!

I said a tinfoil hat for a reason. ;)

Kellhus (as Richard III): "A head! A head! My Empire for a head!"

-apologies to the Bard
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

TaoHorror

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« Reply #233 on: November 09, 2017, 01:06:58 am »
You're probably on to something -
 the whole head thing has to be more than something simply cool ( well, it is very cool, but seem to be significant ). Could be the cat set this whole head thing up so he can bounce around ...
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 01:10:35 am by TaoHorror »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #234 on: November 09, 2017, 01:08:17 pm »
MSJ, your whole post was easier for me to understand - thanks for being more verbose, sorry for being slow and needing things spelled out :P.

you think the story will be the end of Earwa.
Not at all. I think TNG will end somewhere in the middle of the war - with the no god still around and/or the fate of the world left uncertain.

Basically, as Bakker himself said, a few Atrocity Tales.
Something like that, yeah. I haven't read it, but he seems married to the idea of something like the Silmarillion.

What I took from that, is that he's going to write from varying perspectives the awfulness of a dying world. And, as others pointed out in the first place, that's a high order he's placing on himself to do, and do well.

Varying perspectives, yes. Awfulness of a dying world will be the setting almost certainly, but not the 'point' if that makes sense. In the way way that TAE had lots of horrible things happen, but they were the frame the story happened within.

That's why, for the sake of sales,
Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.

and to make it a more prominent series, I think he needs to go the opposite direction. He needs to show hope. He hasn't shown a whole lot. Redemption for mankind in the face of Monsters (Consult) and the death of a Godlike figure (Kellhus). Which, was where my original idea came from.

I agree that would be a more commercially viable story. Almost explicitly because of that, I don't think that will happen.

There are many ways for this to be done, and it not be all butterflies and rainbows.
I wasn't considering fully the options for this, and you're right, it could be done within the framework of the series to some degree, but I still think that outcome is a betrayal of the story itself. Thus far, the story has been about failure, not redemption. Yes, there has been some hope and some success along the way, but within the larger tapestry to abject failure.

Yeah, Bakker can write a story full of violence set within a bleak world. That said, an ending that is full of hope and promise for a better future would be against the theme of the entire series.

This is where our communicative breakdown is, I think. Its not that I think Bakker can't write a story in a way that makes sense. I don't think he'll literally turn TSA into Shannara or Harry Potter and have things just magically work out in the end and everyone will skip off into the sunset. There will obviously be plenty of grim realities in the books to come.
The point though, is that the story isn't about redemption - or at least 7 books in that's not a theme I've picked up on.
Its not about humanity prevailing in the face of evil.
Its not about the hero winning.
If the book suddenly becomes one of hope and success, regardless of how commercially viable that is, regardless of how much gratuitous violence is piled onto it, it'll be a betrayal to the story. To me, that will make it seem like everything that happened was a huge waste of time, which I detailed pretty well earlier but can go into more detail again if you'd like.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #235 on: November 09, 2017, 02:01:13 pm »
To me, Bakker is a master of intrigue, suspense and surprise = all ingredients of a winning, blow my mind story. I hold no expectations on how it should end. No matter how he ends it ( yes, even if it's butterflies and rainbows ), I'm sure to be reading on the edge of my bed wowing aloud,

"Holy shit, that's fucked up! No! He didn't just do that! Fuck me, what the hell is going on around here?!".

In short, my friends - it's going to be fun no matter what he cooks up and he's wise to avoid this forum so as to disallow us from fucking him up.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 02:04:25 pm by TaoHorror »
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MSJ

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« Reply #236 on: November 09, 2017, 02:11:35 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
MSJ, your whole post was easier for me to understand - thanks for being more verbose, sorry for being slow and needing things spelled out :P.

Nah, usually takes me a few posts to articulate myself, hence the high post count. ;)

Quote
Not at all. I think TNG will end somewhere in the middle of the war - with the no god still around and/or the fate of the world left uncertain.

See, I don't see that. What is the point of Mimara? Alot of things point to a resolution of some sort. Wether its a good one or bad one, I could see either way. I don't know that we'll understand the fate of Earwa, but I think we'll see the NG defeated. No doubt in my mind.

Quote
Lol, going to have to stop you right there. Bakker will die penniless before he does something for sales.

Yet, his whole deal about writi g more hinges on sales. At some point he has to understand he needs some commercial viability. If not, we'll be a much community talking about this when we're walking around with a walking stick. Dozens of us. He needs to learn to make concessions.


Quote
This is where our communicative breakdown is, I think. Its not that I think Bakker can't write a story in a way that makes sense. I don't think he'll literally turn TSA into Shannara or Harry Potter and have things just magically work out in the end and everyone will skip off into the sunset. There will obviously be plenty of grim realities in the books to come.
The point though, is that the story isn't about redemption - or at least 7 books in that's not a theme I've picked up on.
Its not about humanity prevailing in the face of evil.
Its not about the hero winning.
If the book suddenly becomes one of hope and success, regardless of how commercially viable that is, regardless of how much gratuitous violence is piled onto it, it'll be a betrayal to the story. To me, that will make it seem like everything that happened was a huge waste of time, which I detailed pretty well earlier but can go into more detail again if you'd like.

No need to rehash, I get your side of the story, its just not one I totally believe in and do not think it goes against theme and plot. There is plot set ups the that NG will be defeated. Mimara, Akka's dream with the Heron Spear not killing the NG, and so forth. I cant wrap my head around yours and others insistent that it goes against the themes and couldn't be properly done. I would never expect a riding off into the sunset ending. I would expect a almost defeated humanity, that would have to start over and might not even make it. What with the mass amount of Sranc and whatnot that would still be left. I see nothing of unicorns and rainbows, rather, wtf are we gonna do know. Is there gods? Has sorcery ceased to exist, I think so. A whole different world still on the verge of failure, and that fate we will not know.



“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #237 on: November 09, 2017, 02:47:38 pm »
In short, my friends - it's going to be fun no matter what he cooks up and he's wise to avoid this forum so as to disallow us from fucking him up.

Unfortunately, I agree.

...
Glad we figured out where we're both at :) , 10 posts later, even if we're still at about the same place we started it was illuminating.
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MSJ

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« Reply #238 on: November 09, 2017, 03:12:34 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Glad we figured out where we're both at :) , 10 posts later, even if we're still at about the same place we started it was illuminating.

Did you ever expect us to waiver?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #239 on: November 09, 2017, 04:47:42 pm »
No need to rehash, I get your side of the story, its just not one I totally believe in and do not think it goes against theme and plot. There is plot set ups the that NG will be defeated. Mimara, Akka's dream with the Heron Spear not killing the NG, and so forth. I cant wrap my head around yours and others insistent that it goes against the themes and couldn't be properly done. I would never expect a riding off into the sunset ending. I would expect a almost defeated humanity, that would have to start over and might not even make it. What with the mass amount of Sranc and whatnot that would still be left. I see nothing of unicorns and rainbows, rather, wtf are we gonna do know. Is there gods? Has sorcery ceased to exist, I think so. A whole different world still on the verge of failure, and that fate we will not know.
The thing is, you can't both defeat the No-God AND the God. It's one of the other, and everything points toward the No-God winning. I don't know why some of you guys assume that means that Sranc will forever rule Eärwa though. Hell, you could say humanity won in the sense that the Mutilated and possibly Shaeönanra (my beloved hero) are still alive. Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.