[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit

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MSJ

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« Reply #240 on: November 09, 2017, 05:27:18 pm »
That's it, not my perspective at all. I've outlined mine. I think the God could still exist without the Outside. The Outside holds the shattered remnants of the God, the God merely sleeps. The Outside is a place for the 100, not God. So, you can defeat the NG and shut the Outside, but still have a God. More like how we would view our World. The God restored.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #241 on: November 09, 2017, 05:51:19 pm »


Yeah, I think you're on to something about the perspective of TNG "winning" is a "bad" thing. Bakker has made it clear his writing (bp) challenges classic narrative prose, so here he dishes out a "sad" ending only to bring us full circle to a place where it's actually a "happy" ending. The goal is to hunt humanity to "near" extinction which may well pose a better future for humanity. That level of decimation may yield a brighter future than the alternative. And if Kellhus can "stop" the gods from gnawing on us in the afterlife, that's a big win. Bakker loves fucking with us.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 05:53:24 pm by TaoHorror »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #242 on: November 09, 2017, 05:58:31 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Glad we figured out where we're both at :) , 10 posts later, even if we're still at about the same place we started it was illuminating.

Did you ever expect us to waiver?
I aim to understand, not convince, generally, and learn something myself. All of things things has been accomplished - therefore, great success.


Hell, you could say humanity won in the sense that the Mutilated and possibly Shaeönanra (my beloved hero) are still alive. Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.
Yes, the inversion of "gods are bad, kellhus is bad, dunyain good, meaninglessness good" would not be a huge surprise.
Inchoroi/gods losing = humanity winning ... I can dig that.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Wilshire

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« Reply #243 on: November 09, 2017, 05:59:55 pm »


The goal is to hunt humanity to "near" extinction which may well pose a better future for humanity. That level of decimation may yield a brighter future than the alternative.


Any wound, save that which is fatal.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

obstinate

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« Reply #244 on: November 11, 2017, 05:21:08 am »
The thing is, you can't both defeat the No-God AND the God. It's one of the other, and everything points toward the No-God winning. I don't know why some of you guys assume that means that Sranc will forever rule Eärwa though. Hell, you could say humanity won in the sense that the Mutilated and possibly Shaeönanra (my beloved hero) are still alive. Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.
I don't really agree that everything points to the No-God winning. But here's a really good predictor. As long as a shallow reading of the story would have it seem like a "bad" thing that the No-God wins, the No-God will probably win. If our beloved characters start realizing that they'd be better off if the No-God wins, the No-God is likely to be defeated.

I've read all Bakker's novels, and none of them have a straightforwardly happy ending. I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.

Wilshire

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« Reply #245 on: November 14, 2017, 03:16:29 pm »
Humans to whom meaning is alien to inhabit a meaningless world. That could be a positive ending, depending on your perspective.
As long as a shallow reading of the story would have it seem like a "bad" thing that the No-God wins, the No-God will probably win. If our beloved characters start realizing that they'd be better off if the No-God wins, the No-God is likely to be defeated.
...
I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.

Yes, all these things.

obstinate, I think this is the dichotomy that's spread before us, you've articulated it well.

One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #246 on: November 14, 2017, 05:38:13 pm »
Quote from:  obstinate
I've read all Bakker's novels, and none of them have a straightforwardly happy ending. I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.

Oh, very Bakkerish! In fact that would be a worthy ending to these books and fall in line with the theme perfectly. See, mankind can survive and it not be rainbows and unicorns. Great post.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #247 on: November 15, 2017, 12:58:40 am »
Quote from:  obstinate
I've read all Bakker's novels, and none of them have a straightforwardly happy ending. I could as easily picture the No-God falling in the background as Achamian reaches the peak of Golgatterath to stare into the Inverse Fire, horrible realization dawning upon him just as it's too late to recover.

Oh, very Bakkerish! In fact that would be a worthy ending to these books and fall in line with the theme perfectly. See, mankind can survive and it not be rainbows and unicorns. Great post.
If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.

Dora Vee

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« Reply #248 on: November 15, 2017, 01:15:51 am »
Oh yea, I wouldn't blame you. The status quo on Earwa blew chunks.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

MSJ

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« Reply #249 on: November 15, 2017, 02:02:22 am »
I don't know man. I guess we'd like to see a different ending than one another. Not s big deal. I take the destruction of the world is the one you seem to approve. I see how it fits thematically, you've laid it out well.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

obstinate

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« Reply #250 on: November 15, 2017, 03:24:41 am »
If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.
My imagination isn't as good as Scott's. If his bibliography is any guide, it's going to be worse than what I described. Less satisfying. Read disciple of the dog or neuropath if you don't believe me.

The happiest outcome I can picture at this point is achamian preventing someone else from defeating the no god. But I doubt it will be that happy.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 03:27:51 am by obstinate »

TaoHorror

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« Reply #251 on: November 15, 2017, 03:53:49 am »
Hey, I liked the dog book ( was hoping he would kick out the next one ). Neuropath was a buzzkill, but still liked it - not sure how much of it is true, but learned a lot.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #252 on: November 15, 2017, 04:20:39 am »
Oh yea, I wouldn't blame you. The status quo on Earwa blew chunks.
It's not even that the status quo sucks by itself, it's that it would go against everything he's said about all that "crash-space" shit. The story leads up to this impending transformation of the world and then in what is effectively the epilogue of the series everything just goes back to normal? That would be some sick literary cuckoldry/blue-balling/trolling.

If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.
My imagination isn't as good as Scott's. If his bibliography is any guide, it's going to be worse than what I described. Less satisfying. Read disciple of the dog or neuropath if you don't believe me.

The happiest outcome I can picture at this point is achamian preventing someone else from defeating the no god. But I doubt it will be that happy.
I've read the dog book and I didn't find the ending to be particularly bad, but then again that book wasn't set up to be what SA was set up to be. What you described was many times worse!

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« Reply #253 on: November 15, 2017, 01:08:57 pm »
Oh yea, I wouldn't blame you. The status quo on Earwa blew chunks.
It's not even that the status quo sucks by itself, it's that it would go against everything he's said about all that "crash-space" shit. The story leads up to this impending transformation of the world and then in what is effectively the epilogue of the series everything just goes back to normal? That would be some sick literary cuckoldry/blue-balling/trolling.

If that happens and everything just falls back to status quo I'm never going to read a single word of Bakker again.
My imagination isn't as good as Scott's. If his bibliography is any guide, it's going to be worse than what I described. Less satisfying. Read disciple of the dog or neuropath if you don't believe me.

The happiest outcome I can picture at this point is achamian preventing someone else from defeating the no god. But I doubt it will be that happy.
I've read the dog book and I didn't find the ending to be particularly bad, but then again that book wasn't set up to be what SA was set up to be. What you described was many times worse!
I'm not sure what everyone means by "status quo" and "normal". Post-Arkfall, nothing in Eärwa is "normal". It's analogous to the Western discovery of the Americas. The Tekne is alien to Eärwa.

That said, I'm hoping that the surviving Eärwans find a way to knock the No-God offline AND reject the temptation of Logos/Tekne. That's far from a return to an unavailable status quo.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #254 on: November 15, 2017, 02:31:58 pm »
The bigger game is not the success/failure of TNG or how it should "end", but how does humanity prevent so many ( maybe all of us ) from damnation. That's a 2 fold problem: those already damned ( is there a way to save them still - if there's not, while I understand the panic of those still living, a callous approach to throw millions under the eternal bus just to spare yourself ) and those in line to be damned. The Inchoroi determined TNG to be a solution to this problem, but there is still too much mystery about TNG ( like even it if reduces the population to 144k, would that break the soul cycle and shut the gods out - it might not, hasn't on other worlds apparently ). Also, are there alternatives less violent to accomplishing the same thing? Appears Kellhus thought so. Let me tell ya, if dying at the hands of the TNG meant avoiding eternal damnation, count me in!

In short, the next books will explore all of this on 3 or so levels: Individual TNG effect experiences ( hoping for some from the Mutiliated, but we'll get Akka/Mimarra/the boy/Moe Jr at the very least ), TNG war strategic experiences ( which cities fall, how fast, population counts, Zeum and other country resistance efforts, divine expressions perhaps ) and if any of this improves outlooks for humans in the afterlife. Damnation dwarfs all other concerns, so much so it led mad horrifying plans by The Consult to address it. Kellhus apparently was pursuing other avenues - while the GO was a hell of a journey ( pun intended ), it seemed to be a kinder approach than what The Consult are pursuing - but if Kellhus's approach fails, then The Consult are probably on the right track.

To bring this back around to the original topic, if I simply gain some insight as to what the hell happened in the GR, I would be satisfied.
 
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