[TUC Spoilers] CRACKPOT Is Kellhus the God?

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Yellow

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« on: July 25, 2017, 06:36:52 pm »
Mods - feel free to move this to somewhere else.

Right, I don't actually believe the Baby Kellhus Theory, because it would be a terrible idea, but... let's say for a minute that it's true.

Part 1: As far as I'm aware, there are only 3/4 individuals who are definitely saved/blessed. 1: Mimara. 2: Esmenet. 3(or 4): Mimara's child (maybe includes the still born one, hence the 3 or 4). Even Psatma, who claims to be saved and a bestie of Yatwer... well, we don't know in that case, and Yatwer definitely kept info from Psatma (if we believe Kellhus when he made her splat). So maybe she wasn't saved at all.

Notice anything? All the saved people are in the same family tree.

In fact, when Mimara looked to her belly, she was blinded. I take this as meaning the child within was so fucking blessed that he shone like a beacon.

So, is the child the most blessed individual?

Part 2: The figure that Kellhus sees in his visions is not Ajokli, imo (Ajokli does not strike me as the kind of individual to take a human form with Kellhus' own face and be all calm and reasonable). I believe it is Outside-Kellhus, interfering retro-actively. He has decided to conquer the God ("I war against the God"), and to all intents and purposes, he succeeds at some point.

He needs to re-incarnate, and uses the baby to do this. The baby is therefore incredibly blessed, as is Mimara (because she is the mother and she needs to be blessed to have the Eye for some reason), and so is Esmenent (partly because of the family tree, but also because Kellhus genuinely loves her, as per Kellhus' POV in TGO).

Basically, Kellhus-the-God decides who is damned and who is saved. Everyone else is damned, because that gives him power, but these few individuals are saved.
You are the fist that beats us.

Walter

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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 06:59:58 pm »
The Captain and Sarl illustrate that some souls 'are too hard for hell'.  Some souls 'bounce'.  Old men awaken behind the eyes of babes, etc.  I wouldn't rule out Kellhus being Mimara's child.

I'm in the 'head on a pole' camp, but Kellhus being in the baby wouldn't be stunning.

Redeagl

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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 06:05:21 pm »
My Kellhus theory is that he was too strong ( ie too evil and damned)  to be controlled by Ajokli and is just a LAAAAARGE Ciphrang roaming the hells.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

jurble

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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 08:47:35 pm »
I don't think Kellhus is the God, though I think it's possible he is a prophet of the God who started to disbelieve his own prophethood.   The best fit for The God is Bakker himself in an in-world sense that Bakker is playing the role of the God rather than by his being the author he is the God, if that makes sense.

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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2017, 10:57:42 am »
Well, circumstantially, Kellhus does liken himself as a "hunger" in the Outside, which is who the Hundred are described...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2017, 11:51:30 am »
I'm firmly in the camp of Kellhus ascending as some higher form.  In order of probability, Kellhus is almost certainly a big bad Ciphrang, is likely a God and I suspect he'll become the Unmoved Soul as foreshadowed... pretty much for the entire series.

Kellhus has to be a God/Ciphrang as a stopgap since he sees himself as a Hunger from the outside.  That's why I think that part is all but guaranteed.

The jump from that to "One Godhood" is more a leap of faith.  I first cite the original TTT conversation between Moe and Kellhus.  While Kell believes Moe will push for his own Great Ordeal and betray it through predetermined calamities, it's stated that Kellhus sees further.  The implication the reader is supposed to take from this is that Kellhus will not betray the Ordeal but this is actually not stated.  It's possibly a false implication that readers naturally are expected to take. 

I propose as one possibility, that Moe's vision of betraying the Ordeal has always been part of the plan and Kellhus is merely adding an extra step.  So what is this extra step?  In the discussion with Outside persona Kellhus-lookalike, the entity states that he wars with the God.  To drive him out he must raze the fields.  This means that the war against the God, necessitates the failure of the Great Ordeal and the near extinction of mankind.

So if this is Ciphrang/God Kellhus, he's conditioning his past mortal self to play a part in his war against the God.  I assume this would fulfill the Unmoved Soul concept and consequently either create a new One God construct or replace the existing one.  Perhaps, ironically, the Inrithri Warrior Prophet kills the immanent God of Gods and replaces it with the transcendent Solitary God of the Fanim.  This would also fulfill TTT by adding a second possibility to end damnation.

Wilshire

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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2017, 07:58:29 pm »
I'm firmly in the camp of Kellhus ascending as some higher form.  In order of probability, Kellhus is almost certainly a big bad Ciphrang, is likely a God and I suspect he'll become the Unmoved Soul as foreshadowed... pretty much for the entire series.

Kellhus has to be a God/Ciphrang as a stopgap since he sees himself as a Hunger from the outside.  That's why I think that part is all but guaranteed.

The jump from that to "One Godhood" is more a leap of faith.  I first cite the original TTT conversation between Moe and Kellhus.  While Kell believes Moe will push for his own Great Ordeal and betray it through predetermined calamities, it's stated that Kellhus sees further.  The implication the reader is supposed to take from this is that Kellhus will not betray the Ordeal but this is actually not stated.  It's possibly a false implication that readers naturally are expected to take. 

I propose as one possibility, that Moe's vision of betraying the Ordeal has always been part of the plan and Kellhus is merely adding an extra step.  So what is this extra step?  In the discussion with Outside persona Kellhus-lookalike, the entity states that he wars with the God.  To drive him out he must raze the fields.  This means that the war against the God, necessitates the failure of the Great Ordeal and the near extinction of mankind.

So if this is Ciphrang/God Kellhus, he's conditioning his past mortal self to play a part in his war against the God.  I assume this would fulfill the Unmoved Soul concept and consequently either create a new One God construct or replace the existing one.  Perhaps, ironically, the Inrithri Warrior Prophet kills the immanent God of Gods and replaces it with the transcendent Solitary God of the Fanim.  This would also fulfill TTT by adding a second possibility to end damnation.

I like it. Very cohesive.
One of the other conditions of possibility.