[TUC Spoilers] Metaphysics of the Second Apocalypse

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2017, 05:32:49 am »
Baztek, when Akka becomes a Prophet of the Past, he has a dream where the Heron Spear isnt even fired and the No-God dies anyway.
Where does this happen?

MSJ

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« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2017, 05:56:46 am »
Oh, i try and find it. Im sure of it though.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2017, 09:14:39 am »
I know you're joking and I was gonna say sin depends on intentionality but that was thoroughly refuted by Ishual being soaked through with evil although no Dunyain has ever actually intended to inflict harm for harm's sake.
The fact of them not intending harm is irrelevant. They were inflicting suffering, they knew they were inflicting suffering, and they intended to do what they were doing. The harm caused could be a side effect for the Dunyain, but that doesn't stop damnation, which cares not about their greater goals.

The way Earwa works, they needed to be completely unaware of the ramifications of their actions, and they weren't, they just weren't considering those ramifications important. That's also what so horrifies Mimara, if memory serves.

JRControl

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« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2017, 10:41:36 am »
From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'. Presumably that's how NG controls the weapon races. A one to many emulator or hypervisor in computer terms, aided by many CPUs in the Ark/Sarcophagus. So someone who is mentally flexible enough to be anyone who needs to be at the given time. A place you might say. Except Kellhus was corrupted by Ajokli for his own ends so the burden falls to Kelmomas who being twin-souled is blind to his own lack of a core identity. We have the slightest evidence of that by how he quickly (re)assumed the role as another member of big K's family and actually thwarted his assassination intentionally. This all reminds me of Peter Sellers actually who was quite strange and claimed to have no identity other than the roles he assumed for acting.
“Because you’re a pious man born to a world unable to fathom your piety. But all that changes with me, Akka. The old food pyramids have outlived the age of their intention, and I have come to reveal the new. I am the Slimmest Path, and I say that you are not damned.”

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« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2017, 12:04:40 pm »
Right, precisely, the Gods can't see the No-God because the No-God is THEIR darkness that comes before, ie the abyssal God of Gods pre-shattering, albeit in a "tekne babby's first absolute" kinda way

I felt it was something of the inverse, in the sense that the No-God is the darkness that comes after the gods.  Not that it really changes the end result.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Duskweaver

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« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2017, 01:19:16 pm »
A couple things.

'Coming before' and 'coming after', when Bakker uses those terms, do not (generally) refer to chronological order, but to causality.

So, the No-God being "the darkness that comes before the Gods" doesn't really make sense unless you are claiming that the No-God is the Gods' subconscious. Which I don't think you were.

Also, 'intentionality', when Bakker uses that word, usually refers not to the desire to act, but to the philosophical quality that an act requires as a prerequisite for meaning.

So, "sin depends on intentionality" doesn't mean that you have to deliberately intend to do evil for your actions to be sinful. It just means your actions must have meaning.

Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

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« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2017, 01:28:41 pm »
A couple things.

'Coming before' and 'coming after', when Bakker uses those terms, do not (generally) refer to chronological order, but to causality.

So, the No-God being "the darkness that comes before the Gods" doesn't really make sense unless you are claiming that the No-God is the Gods' subconscious. Which I don't think you were.

Also, 'intentionality', when Bakker uses that word, usually refers not to the desire to act, but to the philosophical quality that an act requires as a prerequisite for meaning.

So, "sin depends on intentionality" doesn't mean that you have to deliberately intend to do evil for your actions to be sinful. It just means your actions must have meaning.

Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.

Yeah and I think the whole issue of "witness" comes into play there too, going all the way back to the Darkness' Prologue and how there are no crimes if there is no one left alive.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2017, 01:31:24 pm »
Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
I agree.

But I also feel that it might, actually, be the other way around, i.e. stripping all acts of intentionality shuts the World off.

H

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« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2017, 01:34:59 pm »
Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
I agree.

But I also feel that it might, actually, be the other way around, i.e. stripping all acts of intentionality shuts the World off.

Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2017, 01:46:30 pm »
Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).
It most certainly has significance.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2017, 01:51:33 pm »
Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).
Although the Death of Birth complicates this somewhat. It seems like, for normally-ensoulled-beings like humans, a soul is necessary not merely for personhood, but to live at all. When the No-God walks, children are not born as soulless robots, but as literal corpses.

Almost as though the World itself tries to create meaning, even as the Outside is gradually shut off, by making literal what is happening metaphysically.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2017, 01:59:02 pm »
Although the Death of Birth complicates this somewhat. It seems like, for normally-ensoulled-beings like humans, a soul is necessary not merely for personhood, but to live at all. When the No-God walks, children are not born as soulless robots, but as literal corpses.
I think here we encounter the problem of not having any information about the next stage of System Operation, the one that happens when the population is reduced to the 144k souls.

Woden

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« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2017, 02:21:31 pm »
Shutting the World off from the Outside strips all acts of intentionality and so makes sin and judgement impossible. Everything becomes merely objective facts, shorn of subjective interpretations. Killing is just killing, not murder. Fucking is just fucking, not rape. Eating a man's flesh is just eating, not cannibalism. And so on.
I agree.

But I also feel that it might, actually, be the other way around, i.e. stripping all acts of intentionality shuts the World off.

Part of it though, I'd think, is that the cycle of souls is a major part of what gives meaning, because without a soul you are just meat (the same as any other meat).

That makes me wonder if the Emwama have souls now. The are some kind of domestic pet humans now, breed only for obedience. Are they evolved into something less than human? And if so, have they lost their souls in the involution?
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« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2017, 02:01:06 pm »
From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'.

Specifically:

Quote from: Bakker
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.
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« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2017, 02:04:52 pm »
From what was gleaned via Bakker, the brains that goes into the Sarcophagus needs to be suitable for 'emulation'.

Specifically:

Quote from: Bakker
And lastly, it's not the blood that enables the Carapace, its the ability of the brain to functionally emulate that of an original Insertant.

Right, that was neat and means I was probably on the something with my theory in the The Incû-Holoinas thread.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira