[TUC Spoilers]What was the point

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EdwardReynolds

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« on: July 26, 2017, 08:30:56 am »
A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"

What am i missing here?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 10:11:03 am by H »

Woden

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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 08:55:52 am »
If this were the real end of the story, well, yes, Bakker would be the most greatest troll-writer in the world (surpassing by far GRR Martin), what the fuck would be the purpose of the books.
But it seems that we will have at least to books more with the conclusion. And I truly hope that these books won't be just a succession of gore, misery, rape and death.
I'd like some words of Bakker giving us some light about all of this.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Moosehunter

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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 09:34:35 am »
A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"

What am i missing here?

Well first of all i'm not sure that there are any "Good Guys".

Man is a horrible, brutal race. Selected by the Inchoroi when roaming in Eanna to essentially be another weaponized race. They were manipulated through the use of the Tusk and the subversion of their religion, to attack and destroy the great Nonman civilization.
The Nonmen, although cultured and accomplished, were also fairly brutal in their own right. They took the early tribes of man on this side of the Great Kayarsus  and whelmed them. The Emwanna became a somewhat mentally retarded and servile race through selective breeding.

But back to man. There is not a character in the book that is objectively "good". Even those who view themselves as devout (pure, religious, good) are in fact little more than fanatics who have chosen to concentrate their passions in a particular direction. Proyas has slaughtered Orthodox for their lack of faith in his false prophet. Esmenet has sentenced many to die in her role as Empress of the Three Seas.

Mimara is about the closest i have seen to a good person and she seduced an old man for gain, using her likeness to his only love.

Essentially the books seem to be a harsher reflection of our own reality. No person is any one thing. We are all both good and bad to some degree. We are all selfish. We are all generous. We love and we hate.

I would argue that the books are about "The End Justifies The Means".

This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.
There are at least 2 books to go (i would imagine). Moenghus is king of the Scylvendi and has an intact host ready to fight a retreat across the north. Zeum has been mentioned a lot more in recent books and is now coming into the fray (i hope). Kellhus is possibly still in play but is potentially the biggest bad of all. Crabicus is out in the wild. Imperial forces were gathering in Sumna. And who the hell knows what will come out of the east. I find it strange that Bakker went to all the trouble of leaving one tribe out there. One that rejected the Tusk and thus was not manipulated by the Vile.

And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.

themerchant

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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 09:46:35 am »
2/3 of the way through the story would be my reminder.

Personally I loved the last book, my favourite of the series so far.

Moosehunter

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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 11:59:53 am »
2/3 of the way through the story would be my reminder.

Personally I loved the last book, my favourite of the series so far.

I loved it too Merchant but it's completely different than all the others in that it's really the end of the TGO.
I felt the build up to the action was missing when really the previous book was the build up.
The plains of Agongorea were horrifically awesome. The descriptions of the Incu-Holinas were excellent and really helped me visualize the enormity of the Ark. I like to think of that scene in Star Wars TFA when Rey is standing there with the downed Star Destroyer in the desert background, and imagine that the Ark is there. Larger. Majestic. The closest thing to Hell on Earwa.

Walter

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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 12:27:22 pm »
I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".  Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right?  Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

Tyrin

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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 12:55:01 pm »
"LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

In my eyes the bad guys lost and the good guys won, so I disagree  :)

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 01:06:02 pm »
Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds  :)

A decade of real life waiting and in the last 30 pages the author pissed the whole lot up the wall its just a generic "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

Im being very black and white about this but and stripping all the philosophy out to get to the root of the story, the whole exercise was pointless.
Nothing was resolved. Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

7 book and 10 years can be boiled down to two words - dont matter
A beautifully complex world collapsing into a pile of "K Nope"

What am i missing here?

I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".  Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right?  Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

What parts bothered you? What specifically was a let down? Who do you feel are the good guys, and for that matter, the bad guys, and which group do you believe won?

That generic 'critique', if you can call it that, can be applied to just about anything with only the slightest of adjustments, and would be equally meaningless.
Romeo and Juliet - "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"
Shawshank Redemption - "LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL"

So if you'd like to have a conversation about what you think, you're going to have to, well, let people know what you actually think, otherwise there's nothing here to discuss. Regardless, thanks for voicing an opinion, posts are what keep the forum alive.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 01:07:37 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2017, 02:00:48 pm »
Well, the point was for 7 books and twn years of your life you read a series where the author took traditional fantasy tropes and turned them on their head. The ending is just another aspect of what Bakker did with this series.

But,  you know, there is still a 3rd series to be written to finish off TSA. And, i will tell you if it is juat about the destruction of a civilization with no hope...well im not gonna take the time to read it, myself. But, i dont think that is gonna happen. Either Kellhus Tricked the Trickster and will aid humanity through the Outside or it will be a tale of human perseverance. And, i think the latter is much more probable, imo. TSA is a warning to us about what might happen if we let Technology rule us, Nonmen and Inchoroi are both analogs for posthumanism. I think what he did with the 1st 2 series was well done and flipped fantasy on its head. When have you read anything where the bad guys actually win? The hero wasnt a hero after all? Maybe it couldve been done better, i dunno.

Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach. They also like to be cheeky about it. I figure he wants to show us in the 3rd series, that we humans control our own fate. He's not finished yet, so dont be so critical. And, as the man said hisself, what he did with TUC, well, ive never read nothing like that before in fantasy. And, i read a shit ton of fantasy, and its always the same, "they" are in peril and then find this miraculous way to win the day. Some is done well, others is shite.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 02:03:39 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2017, 02:06:26 pm »
Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach. They also like to be cheeky about it. I figure he wants to show us in the 3rd series, that we humans control our own fate. He's not finished yet, so dont be so critical. And, as the man said hisself, what he did with TUC, well, ive never read nothing like that before in fantasy. And, i read a shit ton of fantasy, and its always the same, "they" are in peril and then find this miraculous way to win the day. Some is done well, others is shite.

Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 02:14:48 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.

Part of it no doubt is the philosophical underpinnings. But, there's more there. As i said, i think this was 18 year old Bakker story and its finish and he never swayed from the meat of the story. As the books go along he becomes a better and better writer. Thats why i think TSTSNBN will be the lesson.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 02:24:46 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Bakker has some nuggets down at the bottom of the acknowledgments section regarding this. Just a few words, maybe part of a sentence, but I think its quite telling. He wrote for a reason, that's clear. What that reason is will probably be a debate for as long as there are people asking why.

Part of it no doubt is the philosophical underpinnings. But, there's more there. As i said, i think this was 18 year old Bakker story and its finish and he never swayed from the meat of the story. As the books go along he becomes a better and better writer. Thats why i think TSTSNBN will be the lesson.


Right, but what will be the subject ;). We'll have to wait and find out.
Like 42 is the answer, but without the question its meaningless.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 02:27:24 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 02:39:22 pm »
Posthumanism, how technology will ruin us....just a guess
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 02:42:31 pm »
Posthumanism, how technology will ruin us....just a guess
Yeah probably close to the mark. Wish he'd publish more scifi - that connection becomes more clear and he's got damn good stories to tell.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2017, 02:49:27 pm »
Wilshire, i cant recommend highly enough to take up BK's rec on Three Body Problem. Deals with alot of these issues and from what ive reas so far, is very good.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,