[TUC Spoilers]What was the point

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EdwardReynolds

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« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2017, 07:39:31 am »
Fist off guys and gals thanks for all the replys, i love these books and love seeing other people hitting me up back with their own views:)

Second sorry for the wall of text. Just kidding im not sorry.


I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".  Like, surely, if you changed the last chapter so the good guys won an alternate version of you would be here saying 'LOL good guys win and all the bad guys die LOLOL", right?  Can you explain a bit more what you mean?
For example I will point to book One. Two. Three. Four. Five. And six. The author is perfectly capable of concluding a story in a satisfying way that doesnt involve all the shining knights killing all the orcs and no one dies. Book 7 just murders everyone on the turn of a dime at the very end. 
Book 7 explicitly outlines that souls can go to hell for eternal torment. Thats us. Im not religeous in real life, but this is clearly the relatable factor to us as readers. Humans and Nonmen are still shitty, but they dont go around creating goblins that love fucking stab wounds to kill their enemies. Scranc and the Consort are not the good guys.

Feel free to convince me the inverse is true.
If this were the real end of the story, well, yes, Bakker would be the most greatest troll-writer in the world (surpassing by far GRR Martin), what the fuck would be the purpose of the books.
I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.
Well first of all i'm not sure that there are any "Good Guys".
...
And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.
Humans all have their souls sucked into hell, tbh im 0% convinced the judging eye is a worthy indication of damnation -Esmi had a whore house burned down and all the workers executed. The Tusk prayers mention 'dont judge me on my actions by my intentions' or something along this line and Esmi constantly thinks about brutally murdering people.
Her halo is a different color and only the Eye can see it when its turned on. IMO The Judging Eye is some magic god like stuff but just like everything magic and/or god related it is falable based on the source. Mimara loves her mother.
Kayutas is under the ark, hes dead as all heck, and much like Cnaiur whe we all thought was dead last time we arent given explicit proof any of Akka, Esmi or Mimara are alive. Mimara finally ditches her chorae but that doesnt mean squat, as there is explicit mention of the Horde recovering and utilising chorae at the click of fingers.

Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds  :)
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

Thanks for the welcome :)
Please keep rereading my OP untill it makes sense, some of my above responses clarify.
As mentioned im cutting to the bone, good and bad teams are patently obvious.

the destruction of a civilization with no hope...
The hero wasnt a hero after all?

Thats eaxactly what the last 30 pages of Book 7 does to 10 years of story. Inverse cliche is still cliche.

Also Rorschach from The Watchmen says hi.
And The Comedian from The Watchment says hi.
Deadpool says hi
Heisenberg says hi.
The Anti hero is an existing trope.

Being classically righteous doesnt make you the good guy. You dont even have to be the good guy to be the good guy. One entity in the story is trying to save the collective souls of humanity from Hell, and he got killed randomly in the las 30 pages because LOL. What was the point of it all?

(click to show/hide)

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Anyway, there are still a lot of untied up plot lines and points like akka, Moengus II, and crabby etc whatever...im all for a cliff hanger but this ending as far as I can figure so far is a pile of garbage.

 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:38:32 am by Wilshire »

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« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2017, 09:33:03 am »
The Judging Eye doesn't see with modern, real world morality it sees with the morality of Old Testament God(s).  Women are less than men, dogs are unclean, and its moral to for powerful people to avenge wrongs done to their children with mass slaughter.  It's one of the reasons that damnation galls:  not only is the fate of most, but the judgement criteria is manifestly unjust.  Esmenet's crimes are the crimes of a prostitute, an empress, and a mother.  The second and third are probably allowable under the Tusk and as for the first, while whores are condemned in the Tusk notice who Ajokli is married to.  The rules are never the same for the mighty.

As for the Second Apocalypse, well that's the name of this board.  Is anyone really that surprised that it occurred?  The first one was survived.  All hope is not yet lost.

Woden

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« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2017, 09:52:55 am »
I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.

I feel pretty much the same.

Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???
Just watch the outcome and cry "fly you fools"??? WTF!!!
I mean I'd be very pissed off if Gandalf went to the Morannon with all the Gondor suckers to not to fight in the battle and to just watch how the orcs go medieval with all his friends.
What kind of gnostic mage is Achamian? I was expecting real action for him, not just playing the midwife with Mimara and Esmenet.
Yes, they had a cool travel through Earwa, and found themselves in their wandering (as qirri junkies, lol), but, for fuck sake, they don't do a relevant thing for the common cause (meaning trying to prevent the Second Apocalypse). I hope that they will be able to do something more in the next series because Achamian is one of my favourite characters but his part in this book is pretty lame to me.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 04:58:52 pm by Woden »
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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2017, 10:59:06 am »
Humans all have their souls sucked into hell, tbh im 0% convinced the judging eye is a worthy indication of damnation

It doesn't matter whether it's a "worthy" indicator, it only matters if it is true. And all evidence in the series point to it being the true objective indicator of who is damned and who is not.

The Anti hero is an existing trope.

Except Kellhus isn't an anti-hero, it turns out he's just a full-fledged villain in a world of villains. (Eternal Kellhus apologists might disagree but I think their position is a lot more untenable after TUC).
I mean even if you don't think Kellhus is basically the Big Bad of the series after TUC, then at least he is the "Unknown Bad", since we know that the Dunsult really do want to close the world to the outside, which would be a great thing for humanity even if you spend life being raped by Sranc, because at least you don't have a 99.9% chance to suffer even worse atrocities in the afterlife once the Outside is closed.

But the only thing we know about Kellhus is that he teamed up with Ajokli at the cost of untold thousands/millions of souls and allowing Ajokli to manifest in Earwa in some way through him(turning it into literal hellscape), and we're not even sure if Kellhus actually had some plan to close off the Outside instead of just being content to starve the other non-Ajokli gods.

For that reason I consider Kelljokli to be a far greater evil than the Consult, since the Consult's ends would at least help humanity to no longer suffer eternal damnation, while we don't really know what Kelljokli had planned beyond turning Earwa into Hell.

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« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2017, 11:34:16 am »
Welcome to the forum, EdwardReynolds  :)
Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

Thanks for the welcome :)
Please keep rereading my OP until it makes sense, some of my above responses clarify.
As mentioned im cutting to the bone, good and bad teams are patently obvious.

Cutting to the bone and simply leaving out details are not the same thing.

What's obvious? I asked who's the good guy for you because, well, its not obvious (obviously ;) ).
Who's goals are good? I don't want to have to lay out the whole series here, so why not just have the conversation instead of avoiding it? I'll give you some examples to help out though.
Kellhus - Does he want to save the world or take it for himself? Becomes the God of Hell to save the sins of humanity (jesus figure), or to avoid his own damnation (selfish)
Inchoroi - to save their souls, and the souls of all of Earwa from eternal damnation. Is this good or bad?

I think we can all agree none of us would be here if it was simple. If its simple for you because you see much farther and more clearly, please enlighten me, the simple in your midst.

Easy to make a statement, harder to make an explanation, more difficult still to engage in conversation. Cant have the later without the former, so again, if you'd like to talk, do please be more explicit about your thoughts so I don't have to fill in the gaps for you. Otherwise, it seems you're just venting, and that's great, but you'll probably find interesting conversation difficult here.


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« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 11:58:43 am by Wilshire »
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codebread

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« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2017, 02:08:57 pm »

I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1029.0

I'm not sure where the original source of any of this is, but the third series is currently named TSTSNBN, and as it stands, will be a duology. I think the lack of this information being readily available is the biggest problem. People think TUC is the intended end, and it isn't. Whether or not the series gets made is another story, I suppose.

Also, Bakker is having an AMA on August 2nd on reddit. He's mentioned that after the release of TUC he wants to share the actual name of the third series. You might want to check that AMA out.

Wilshire

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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2017, 02:31:45 pm »
Oh, yeah, "the third series".

Thats a bit of a story, but basically, The Second Apocalypse was originally concieved as a Trilogy, with Prince of Nothing being book 1, The Aspect Emperor as book 2, and per Bakkers only notation he has ever give "The Series That Shall Not Be Named" as book 3.

PON was split into a trillogy, TAE into 4, and as of last statements available (probably years old at this point) TSTSNBN is supposed to be a duology.

Here's an old link from an interview done in 2004. Bakker says:
Quote
The Prince of Nothing consists of three books, The Darkness that Comes Before, The Warrior-Prophet, and The Thousandfold Thought. They tell the story of the crucial events that occur some twenty years before the Second Apocalypse begins. I have outlines (whose original forms, coincidentally, date back some twenty years) that sketch the story of the Second Apocalypse, starting with The Aspect-Emperor and ending with The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named. Whether these will turn into trilogies like The Prince of Nothing remains to be seen. My guess is that each will be a dualogy.

Basically, PON is a prequel, TAE is the start of The Second Apocalypse, and TSTSNBN is the ending.
Blame Bakker for obfuscating this fact for the last 10+ years - he's superb at shooting himself in the foot. I'm not sure if he thought he was being clever with his cagey comments through the years, or if he thought he was playing some funny joke, or honestly thought everyone just knew TAE was 'the beginning' per the above quote from 13 years ago.

I don't know if I've ever fully read that linked quote - the implication is that with TUC we're in the very middle of the story.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 02:44:16 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2017, 02:53:41 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, EdwardReynolds

This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.

Or TAE taken as one book with narrative arcs across four portions ;)?

There are at least 2 books to go (i would imagine). Moenghus is king of the Scylvendi and has an intact host ready to fight a retreat across the north. Zeum has been mentioned a lot more in recent books and is now coming into the fray (i hope). Kellhus is possibly still in play but is potentially the biggest bad of all. Crabicus is out in the wild. Imperial forces were gathering in Sumna. And who the hell knows what will come out of the east. I find it strange that Bakker went to all the trouble of leaving one tribe out there. One that rejected the Tusk and thus was not manipulated by the Vile.

And lastly, Acha, Esmenet and Mimara are alive. Possibly Kayutas too.

Not to mention all ensouled creatures across Earwa can perceive the No-God. Whatever his reasons, the Aspect-Emperor spoke true and wasn't warring across the wastes of Earwa against a myth.

"LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL"

In my eyes the bad guys lost and the good guys won, so I disagree  :)

Lol.

This person read all seven of these books, and felt invested enough to google up a website where they could write what they thought about it.  That's an incredible level of engagement.

I'm glad for ER's presence, either way.

The greater impact of a thread is that all the posts are permanent. If some future user comes across this and clicks it, what will they see? A bunch of superfans flaming someone not part of the circle-jerk, or a community interested in engaging deeper discussion with even though who disagree? If the former, I have failed and they will leave, and if the latter then maybe they will feel compelled to participate themselves. :) . No follow-up of the OP does not change that outcome.

+1

Well said, Wilshire. Dissenting views should be welcome. Some are more helpful than others...but all should be welcome.

They are. In fact, they're encouraged ;).

1. It was my understanding that the TSTSNBN is not a sure thing and it's very possible that this is the closure of the series.  People are talking a lot about another series after this one and I will admit that it appears to be written as if there is more to come. If we get confirmation of that, then my reflection on this book will be much more positive as I will understand this is not the proverbial end.

Bakker's online presence is sporadic at best and he certainly hasn't done himself any favours regarding the necessity of TSTSNBN. I imagine we're going to get some statements during the r/fantasy AMA next week but at the moment, as far as I know, no one has purchased TSTSNBN (which is itself an opportunity because Overlook seems unable to do Bakker's work due diligence even).

But I do find it incredibly ignorant on the part of readers - not necessarily you, just using your comment as a jump-off point - that they are unwilling to distinguish The Aspect-Emperor's narrative from narrative seeds that might find their fruition in TSTSNBN.

Again, these are more on me than anything else. To be clear, I loved the series and TUC...like the first poster said...10 years of my life have been invested in and evangelizing R Scott Bakker and these books. It's a testament to the author that his work would inspire these types of emotions. Being inspired, positive or negative, by the written word is a good thing...I wish it happen more often to more people.  Bakkers' work inspired me...it made me think, it inspired me to research, it forced me to question my beliefs and grow as a person...that is what is important...and for that, I thank him.

Preach. Also, I appreciate your avatar 8).

A specific example is Crabicus. As I was reaching the end and there was no mention (or action) on his part, I was more and more anticipating his arrival at the end...when the end came, as awesome as it was, he was no where to be found (that we could see).  Both he and the survivor were fantastic characters to introduce...and I get that the survivor served his purpose (much like Cleric...so fun to read about...but in the end, had a purpose and it was served) and accepted his leap for what is what (or for what I could understand of it at least). But Crabicus...I was absolutely expecting him to play a part...any part...but from what we had insight into, he did not.

Bakker's publicly mentioned that Crabicus (not by that now fan-canon name) has some future role to play. Again, among a great number of others, is an example of Bakker seeding something for later but wasn't essential to the plot of TAE - as opposed to, the Survivor, who did double duty regarding some metaphysical insight as well as making me, anyhow, exceptionally wary of the Mutilated.
       
2. I have always found myself disappointed by endings. I remember reading the Hyperion series by Dan Simmons and being utterly disappointed with how it concluded. The difference between Hyperion and TSA is my expectations where MUCH higher for TSA...thus my disappointment is much more impactful. 

Oh man, I loved the Hyperion Cantos, start to finish. I'm a sucker, it seems, for conclusions. I give a lot of grace to authors for writings as they will, regardless of expectation, and appreciate greatly when a story ends in a way that isn't satisfying in the way people expected it to be.

+1

Many of the plotlines that were set up aren't concluded (Crabicus, Ciphrang Assassin, Meppa, to name a few off the top of my head), and that's without acknowledging that the book creates a huge amount of questions at the end without explaining any of them. I think the ending would have felt more satisfying if it all hadn't happened so fast. However, right as you're expecting to get all of the answers, the entire plot turns on its head and the book ends.

I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I agree. I feel like a decade of waiting and reading has been just flushed down the toilet. I'm cheesed off enough to register on this forum for the first time. I'll be posting my own thread to go over some of my frustration.

Once again, panorama, I'm glad you found your way here, regardless :).

I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.       

TGO and TUC definitely would have benefited from the work of his previous editor at Overlook. Ultimately, despite Bakker's fault in the matter, Overlook failed to do even their due diligence, in my opinion.

Mind you, I don't have the trouble teasing narrative clarity that others seem to. Whether that's an artifact of my predispositions or an illusion of interpretative confidence, I'm not sure. I will note again that I seem to be among a readerly minority in a good number of my interpretations so far.

As for the Second Apocalypse, well that's the name of this board.  Is anyone really that surprised that it occurred?  The first one was survived.  All hope is not yet lost.

All hope is not yet lost. One of the reasons I enjoy reading Bakker so much is because the characters continue to strive despite their harsh world. Bakker's writing has always provided me with much solace.

Paraphrasing TMH but "it's like no one has the emotional cahoones to gaze back upon the void itself, as it is, and continue to live."

I think we can all agree none of us would be here if it was simple. If its simple for you because you see much farther and more clearly, please enlighten me, the simple in your midst.

Indeed.

A reminder to everyone: personal attacks, even as retaliation, are unacceptable. You are responsible for yourself. If you'd like to have a discussion about how you feel wronged, please see this thread. Further discussion about this shall be directed to that post and will be deleted from this thread. Thanks.

Thanks, #2.


I am unaware of any future books, all press has pointed to The Unholy Consort being the end. Please link me to sources - I am by no means not going to read more by Bakker, I love these (Kellhus) books.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1029.0

I'm not sure where the original source of any of this is, but the third series is currently named TSTSNBN, and as it stands, will be a duology. I think the lack of this information being readily available is the biggest problem. People think TUC is the intended end, and it isn't. Whether or not the series gets made is another story, I suppose.

Also, Bakker is having an AMA on August 2nd on reddit. He's mentioned that after the release of TUC he wants to share the actual name of the third series. You might want to check that AMA out.

The wotmania Files: Interview with R. Scott Bakker (6/27/2004):

When I originally conceived the whole story (The Second Apocalypse) way back when, it was a trilogy with The Prince of Nothing as the first book, The Aspect-Emperor as the second, and The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named as the third. But of course The Prince of Nothing has since become a trilogy in its own right, which would seem to suggest that The Second Apocalypse will be nine books long! I honestly have no idea how long it will ultimately be. My best guess is that The Aspect-Emperor and The-Book-that-Shall-Not-Be-Named will both be dualogies - if that's really a word...

Apparently, Wilshire beat me to it :P.

I'm almost positive there's another post corroborating this on Zombie Three-Seas...

Quote from: Bakker
The original plan was to write The Second Apocalypse (am I weird for loving that title as much as I do?) as a trilogy. Since the first installment, The Prince of Nothing turned into a trilogy in itself, I'm assuming the same thing will happen with the sequels.
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MSJ

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« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2017, 05:54:26 pm »
And, id like to say dissenting views are what keep the forum going, keep the conversation flowing. I have no problem with them. I have many issues with TUC, which many have already stated. If you see my posts from here and Westeros, i have my fair share share of criticizing Bakker, but im still a fanboy.  ✌
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 06:00:18 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2017, 06:02:14 pm »
I don't see any problem with not having a Disney fairy tale ending, myself. Hell, the overall series is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Btw, there is still a third series coming.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2017, 06:11:06 pm »
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?

So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2017, 06:27:48 pm »
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?

So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.
After TGO, I never 100% trusted Bakker's words. So much for Cnaiür's arc being finished :P
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2017, 06:55:13 pm »
With regards to TSTSNBN, hasnt Bakker also stated that upon finishing TUC that his "original" story was complete and he would be fine with falling dead tomorrow? Or, something aling those lines?

So, what i take from that is this is the story he created as "Teen Bakker" and TSTSNBN is something he added on layer when he got into philosophy and such. As me and Wilshire were discussing, TSTSNBN will be the lesson or to show us what mankind is capable of without magic and technology. TSTSNBN is "Adult Philosophy Teacher Bakker" vision.


Yup, something confusing like that. Like I said, he definitely made it less clear to those listening that there might be something after TUC. Yet, in 2004 he clearly said TAE starts the tale and TSTSNBN ends it. Wtf.


After TGO, I never 100% trusted Bakker's words. So much for Cnaiür's arc being finished :P
Dude, tell me about it. That was a straight up lie. Again, a masterful shot directly into his own foot. Now we have to question everything he says about his own book.

Now, I'm more willing to accept words regarding IRL stuff, which 'the number of books' falls within. But, yeah, if he just lies all the time, who knows.
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« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2017, 06:59:07 pm »
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.

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« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2017, 07:06:28 pm »
I don't see any problem with not having a Disney fairy tale ending, myself. Hell, the overall series is named THE SECOND APOCALYPSE. Btw, there is still a third series coming.

No problem for me if TUC were the end of it but at least all storylines were clear and decently closed, obviously an "so did the Great Ordeal perish..." is not enough.
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