[TUC Spoilers]What was the point

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Wilshire

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« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2017, 07:12:03 pm »
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.

Without TSTSNBN, the entire series will be less than it could have been, for me that's a certainty.
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Woden

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« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2017, 07:22:34 pm »
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.

Without TSTSNBN, the entire series will be less than it could have been, for me that's a certainty.

Agreed, for me it would be like ASOIAF with no "Winds of Winter", which is a damned possibility, by the way.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2017, 07:23:54 pm »
I worry for Bakker's future publications .
[edit] so as to not be misquoted or misinterpreted, I worry the same as I worried for TGO/TUC, which stems from my disappointment in Overlook as a shite publishing company, and has nothing to do with Bakker's books or his writing.[/edit]
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 07:38:16 pm by Wilshire »
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2017, 07:33:17 pm »
TSA is a warning to us about what might happen if we let Technology rule us, Nonmen and Inchoroi are both analogs for posthumanism.
I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 07:37:18 pm by tleilaxu »

Woden

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« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2017, 07:56:33 pm »
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
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MSJ

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« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2017, 11:20:58 pm »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.

Uhhh, buddy, technology (Tekne) is what is causing the world to end. I.E., the No-God and all its weapon races. Not to mention what technology did to the Progenitors to make them want to reach Godhood. I think you got it backwards there, but thats just my opinion.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Rots

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« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2017, 03:44:36 am »
Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.

I feel shortchanged. The Ark, the golden Ark, the inchies, Shae, where were the massive dumps of info? Keep in mind i literally just finished the book and have not read the appendices yet. But yeah..40% to the obvious and well worn tracks of the inhumanity of man was way too much.

Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.

Im looking forward to reading the thoughts of those that see deeper than i..but overall color me underwhelmed.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 03:57:26 am by Rots »

CondYoke

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« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2017, 05:40:50 am »
24 hours later, and I am still unraveling. But I am feeling better and better about the book. The info is there Rots, it's just, admittedly as usual for Bakker, totally obfuscated.
Looking back at the entire text- (remember that he originally planned to publish the last two books as one book), I feel like it's more coherent than at first read. I agree with you and others that a stronger editor would have added to the final product.
That being said, Bakker has, in my mind, created, and continues to create, something which stands on its own- it is terrifying, utterly unique, and awe inspiring.

Edit- did I mention that i am impressed with anyone who can write a novel- much less suspend this much disbelief over 7 books? Whilst I can barely manage to yoke the legion within to express my meaning clearly in a sentence...
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 05:51:29 am by CondYoke »

panorama

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« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2017, 06:10:48 am »
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.

Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.
 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 06:13:50 am by panorama »

Rots

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« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2017, 06:50:29 am »
Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?

CondYoke

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« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2017, 06:56:42 am »
Haha.. "this book is not for everyone..." I've tried to get people to read one of them- that's tough enough. And yet, you read it. So it's there. In your head. And just so you know, you (and I'd I've been right beside, goading you) would have joined right in with Proyas and the rest of the damned. And that's, ultimately, the point.
We are all of us, deceived.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2017, 09:41:34 am »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I strongly disagree. In a universe with objective morality and hungry Gods, technology is the only thing that can save mankind. Even Kellhus knows such. The fact that the creators of this technology are horrid immoral creatures doesn't help though.
As for the series, I think TUC is a perfectly fine place to end, although we do indeed need at least a big AMA on Reddit or something to clear up questions and confusions. The ending is beautiful and un-expected. One of my favorite characters, despite his spare appearance, was Shaeönanra, so there was some disappointment upon learning he was dead, but overall the twist made up for it.
I also liked how the ending was left open for future installments. Just a good place to end overall.

Uhhh, buddy, technology (Tekne) is what is causing the world to end. I.E., the No-God and all its weapon races. Not to mention what technology did to the Progenitors to make them want to reach Godhood. I think you got it backwards there, but thats just my opinion.
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?

Wilshire

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« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2017, 12:25:30 pm »
I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Yeah that doesn't worry me. Plenty of people here and elsewhere will be pissed off, but that's no different then every book so far. I'd rather that, than Bakker changing the story to pander to the lowest common denominator. He's the best writer I have ever read, but the story is (purposefully) difficult. If its ever a commercial success, it wont be any time soon - but that's probably a discussion for another time.

I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
...

Its cute, what you're doing here. Seeding buzz words so that maybe that's what will drive hits in google searches. Please, go on your crusade, I hope you feel it makes things better for you.

But take this as friendly warning. You are responsible for your actions here. Dissent as you will, but do not be purposefully inflammatory. Yes, that includes needlessly seeding comments for google hits. 

Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?

There's a History of Earwa done by Wert in collaboration with Bakker does mention it briefly. But yes, you are correct that its largely left untouched - little more than a star in the sky.

... And that's, ultimately, the point.

This is an interesting subject for me. I'm not sure I'm clear on exactly Bakker was/is driving at with TSA, but I do think that this touches on something of the theme - how easy it is for our heuristic minds to be manipulated and how difficult it is to see and to change once we've adopted that manipulation as our own. Definitely curious that Bakker has said he had to re-write much of PoN because beta readers were so sympathetic towards Kellhus. I feel Proyas is largely filling this role again in TAE, Kellhus telling us fairly directly he's an evil jackass - yet its impossible for many to even entertain the notion as possible let alone plausible.

In that regard, I believe Bakker may have been done his job too well. He created something that was so grievously offensive to people so as to blind them entirely of the greater ideas held within. Perhaps TSTSNBN will provide some sunglasses  8)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:28:45 pm by Wilshire »
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Dunkelheit

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« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2017, 12:57:46 pm »
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

And I don't accept that every story with an unhappy ending is bad or pointless story. In many cases I would say shoehorning in a happy ending were it doesn't belong at least partially ruins the story rather than add to it. F.ex. in Harry Potter they had been hinting at Harry being a horcrux and the story therefore has to end with his death. But instead J. K. lives up to her name and inserts three super powerful magical objects that no one has ever heard of before just to fucking bring him back from the dead. That's bullshit and I'm super glad Bakker didn't do something like that. There are also plenty of american films that has destroyed the entire point of the film forcing the happy ending, f.ex. Limitless and I am Legend.

As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.

H

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« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2017, 01:10:08 pm »
As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.

I'm unclear what you mean here.  You are saying that since the gods can't see the No-God the whole story doesn't make sense?

I'm with you on the "happy ending" part though.  Anna Karenina certainly doesn't have a happy ending, did not conform to my expectation (yeah, I managed t o have never been spoiled on it), and is still is one of the best books I've ever read, probably in large part because of how it ended.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira