[TUC Spoilers]What was the point

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generalguy

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« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2017, 01:33:44 pm »
Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.

I feel shortchanged. The Ark, the golden Ark, the inchies, Shae, where were the massive dumps of info? Keep in mind i literally just finished the book and have not read the appendices yet. But yeah..40% to the obvious and well worn tracks of the inhumanity of man was way too much.

Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.

Im looking forward to reading the thoughts of those that see deeper than i..but overall color me underwhelmed.

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Dunkelheit

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« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2017, 01:43:05 pm »
I'm glad you agree on the ending part, H.

I'm not an expert on how this world works, but according to Kellhus explanation the gods can't see the No-God or the Consult is because they cause the closing of the world from the Outside. So if the Great Ordeal succeed in stopping the Consult then the gods should be able to see the Consult. But they don't, so the Great Ordeal must fail. This is super circular and I'm not completely clear on the mechanics behind it, but it seems like the Consult were gonna end up winning from the start. Or maybe I misread something.

MSJ

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« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2017, 01:51:20 pm »
The Gods could never see the No-God, because it is not a part of the world. They cant see him now, they couldnt during The First Apocalypse.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2017, 01:55:30 pm »
I'm glad you agree on the ending part, H.

I'm not an expert on how this world works, but according to Kellhus explanation the gods can't see the No-God or the Consult is because they cause the closing of the world from the Outside. So if the Great Ordeal succeed in stopping the Consult then the gods should be able to see the Consult. But they don't, so the Great Ordeal must fail. This is super circular and I'm not completely clear on the mechanics behind it, but it seems like the Consult were gonna end up winning from the start. Or maybe I misread something.

Well, I don't think anyone besides Bakker is clear on how causality really works on Eärwa.  Perhaps maybe not even him.

My best guess about the fact that the Consult would "always" win is that, as the Dûnyain sort of "prove" the logical step to take, in light of facing damnation, is the cut off the soul.  In this sense, the world will always conspire at odds with the Outside.  But the Outside will also strive to not be so cut off from their sustenance, but since they can't see the No-God, how could they ever stop it?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2017, 02:43:57 pm »
Quote from:  tleilaxu
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?

One, we have no idea what Kellhus's true goals were. But, he did state that it was to the Consult and prevent the rise of the No-God.

And, technology (Tekne, No-God) is trying to reduce the population of Earwa to 144,000. While destroying everything in the whirlwnds path and the those lucky 144,000? Well, theyll probably get to be sex puppets for Sranc and the rest of the Consult Weapons Races. So, technology will reduce this planet to nothing, nothing at all for mankind that is. So, how exacrly is technology good in this instance?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2017, 03:03:44 pm »
Quote from:  tleilaxu
You'd rather have humans spend eternity in Hell than having the world shut to the Outside?

One, we have no idea what Kellhus's true goals were. But, he did state that it was to the Consult and prevent the rise of the No-God.
Maybe not, but it's pretty clear what would've happened had the Great Ordeal succeeded. Ajokli and his angels casting the world into a new age of untold suffering. Even if we disregard all this, humanity is still at the mercy of angry Gods. Remember that there's objective morality in this world. You can be damned for following scripture that just happens to not be in complete accordance with the Gods' wills.

And, technology (Tekne, No-God) is trying to reduce the population of Earwa to 144,000. While destroying everything in the whirlwnds path and the those lucky 144,000? Well, theyll probably get to be sex puppets for Sranc and the rest of the Consult Weapons Races. So, technology will reduce this planet to nothing, nothing at all for mankind that is. So, how exacrly is technology good in this instance?
That's just an assumption. There's no reason why the 144,000 remaining souls can't repopulate eventually.

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« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2017, 03:11:49 pm »
Tleilaxu, I'll give in on the first, if that was really Kellhus's plan. Mind you, im of the opinion he tricked the Trickster and is waging war on the Outside to stop damnation. No 100, no one to munch your souls.

But, technology is still being used to destroy a planet. I dont see how this in anyway can be looked at as a good thing. Remember, Earwa is just a continent. There are 2 more that we kbow of and might be more across the great sea. So, the No-God destroys EVERYONE on Earwa and the Outside is still not shut, what then? Move on to Eanna, and kill everyone there and still.....not shut. When does it end? What would be left?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2017, 04:12:57 pm »
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

And I don't accept that every story with an unhappy ending is bad or pointless story. In many cases I would say shoehorning in a happy ending were it doesn't belong at least partially ruins the story rather than add to it. F.ex. in Harry Potter they had been hinting at Harry being a horcrux and the story therefore has to end with his death. But instead J. K. lives up to her name and inserts three super powerful magical objects that no one has ever heard of before just to fucking bring him back from the dead. That's bullshit and I'm super glad Bakker didn't do something like that. There are also plenty of american films that has destroyed the entire point of the film forcing the happy ending, f.ex. Limitless and I am Legend.

As Kellhus explains the fact that the gods can't see the No-God means the Consult at some point has to win. Hence the Consult wins. If you through that out the whole story from the first apocalypse and onwards makes no sense.

Love this. Very much articulating what I haven't yet.

Also I feel like I'm the only person in the world that feels that way about HP and the ending lol, glad to find another ;)
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« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2017, 04:41:24 pm »
Love this. Very much articulating what I haven't yet.

Also I feel like I'm the only person in the world that feels that way about HP and the ending lol, glad to find another ;)

Now I am doubly glad I never read that...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2017, 05:15:45 pm »
Tleilaxu, I'll give in on the first, if that was really Kellhus's plan. Mind you, im of the opinion he tricked the Trickster and is waging war on the Outside to stop damnation. No 100, no one to munch your souls.

But, technology is still being used to destroy a planet. I dont see how this in anyway can be looked at as a good thing. Remember, Earwa is just a continent. There are 2 more that we kbow of and might be more across the great sea. So, the No-God destroys EVERYONE on Earwa and the Outside is still not shut, what then? Move on to Eanna, and kill everyone there and still.....not shut. When does it end? What would be left?
It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.

MSJ

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« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2017, 05:33:01 pm »
Quote from: Tleilaxu
It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.

Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind).  What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2017, 07:58:40 pm »
I've mentioned to others but Bakker is well-aware of his loose ends, whichever he brings more life to later. But again I think distinguishing the narrative arcs of TAE as one book from the loose seeds will go a long way towards appreciating TAE as its own story.

I appreciate TAE for what it is, absolutely. However, I can't ignore that major series-spanning questions are still unanswered and may forever go unanswered. That is the source of my disappointment more than anything.

I get it. But every reader has different expectations on what counts. I'm curious to see how this book ages with the audience.

Just finished the book. Ive been in self imposed exile from the boards for weeks. I must say.. meh. For the record i am 100% fine with the world ending and Mog running rampant. However, ~40% of the book devoted to agongorea? Come the hell on. Yes, we get it. Men = sranc. that is obvious to any casual study of man and history. I dont think we needed hundreds of pages of that.

...

Also, the editing was bad. Bad enough to take me out of the story. There were a lot of verb tense mistakes, repetitive descriptors in back to back to back sentences, etc.

Welcome back, Rots.

On the former part, as Wilshire mentioned in another thread, half the book is decidedly not about the Ordeal Sranc-ifying. There are two chapters, the second of which was heavily cut on the recommendation of one of Bakker's long-time beta readers. Two of twenty chapters. It's an example of the availability heurisitic at work.

I suspect, given the data, that we could probably map how desensitized readers are or aren't based on how much they fixate on these two chapters as being representative of the whole book.

On the latter, the editing of TGO and TUC by Overlook has been atrocious. I've been comparing the notes I sent to Bakker regarding the draft while I've been reading the canon artifact and, as with TGO, none of the mundane errors I caught then were fixed...

I'm on Chapter Four when I pick it up today again but I suspect all the errors are still there.

I worry for Bakker's future publications .

Me too. What about the critics' reviews?
Personally, I'd like to return my copy and get my money back because I feel like I've been ripped off and the author is giving a big middle finger to the reader.

Barring that, I'll just have to settle for reviewing it on Goodreads, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. so that there are sufficient buyer-beware warnings out there. Probably referencing the scene where a little boy is murdered while crying out for his mommy will be sufficient warning about what this book is like. Or maybe referencing one of the many, many scenes of gang rape or necrophilia.

Evangelize as you prefer. But I'll repeat Wilshire's warning, being purposefully inflammatory won't be tolerated and don't be surprised when members want to challenge your thoughts and interpretations.

Bingo

Less leper licking more of the good stuff

Of course a half competent editor would have said the same

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There is one line regarding licking cancerous sores?

Once again, Overlook doesn't seem to assign their competent editors to Bakker.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2017, 08:08:06 pm »
Quote from: Tleilaxu
It's not a good thing, but that's the thing. Humanity is kinda fucked either way. Either live as slaves to hungry Gods forever or face nigh extermination and horror at the hands of the No-God to close the Outside. But overall, the latter is the lesser evil, especially in the context of TUC where the other option was Ajokli reigning on Eärwa. Despite the villains being "not good", the end result is good. Unless you want to live in a world with Gods of course.

Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind).  What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.
I see. That's where we disagree then. The way I see it,  Kellhus was very much in league with Ajokli e.g. "struck a treaty with the Pit", "his siblings are hunting him, he thinks he can hide here" etc. Kellhus wanted infinite power for himself through Ajokli, that is his madness and his path to the absolute. The thing about the Gods seeing is a good point, but Kellhus also says something that they are re-writing the Gods in Golgotterath, that the assassins sent that were doomed to succeed from the beginning become  doomed to fail etc. It's kinda confusing. I don't think the story is complete, but I don't think that the No-God is going to be defeated either.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2017, 09:49:12 pm »
This last book felt a little dissatisfying (taken on it's own) but if you combine it with TGO and read both directly after one another it is a fantastic read.

Both would benefit from better editing IMHO.

Either Kellhus Tricked the Trickster and will aid humanity through the Outside or it will be a tale of human perseverance. And, i think the latter is much more probable.

Could well be both.  It's by no means clear what Kellhus was up to, and whether he won or lost.  Humanity is definitely up against it with the No-God on the loose - but we know it can be defeated.

Do remember, Bakker is a teacher and teachers like to teach.

I think we went to different schools, MSJ ;)

I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.

I felt the opposite.  The first half dragged and dragged.  But once the attack began things got much better.  The equivalent some of the really great battle scenes from PON.  It wasn't perfect though. I'd definitely have liked to see more inside the Ark, and what sort of things were going on there.  Serwa and the dragon was fairly bizarre, in a way that jarred. 

Also, High Cwol is a fucking awful name for anything

I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).

I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.

I'd always assumed the third series would get written

I've posted on this before and explained that I'm a huge fan of this series but I'm also disappointed in the ending.  It's not so much the end goal of inverting the standard fantasy trope where the over-matched heroes find some miraculous way to save the world but rather the opaque narrative.  I wanted to feel the full force of the world ending and the failure of what may have been the world's last best chance at survival but instead all I felt was a burning desire to read and reread the last chapter to figure out what the hell actually occurred.  I've read it again and again and I still can't make heads or tails of it.  And the real kicker is, neither can anyone else!  Beyond strange theories and wild speculations, nobody can say with any degree of certainty just what happened, never mind discussing the why things happened the way they did.   

I can't imagine Bakker's intention to wrap up this opus was to leave everyone completely confused but as his prose improved from book to book his narrative clarity got worse and worse.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, the whole Aspect Emperor series after the Judging Eye could have benefited greatly from a strong editor.     

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the book.  The points above narrative clarity and about the need for a strong editor are spot on.

Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???

We get day-to-day experience of a Nonman Erratic, we find out Ishual has been destroyed by the Consult, we get a POV from a Dunyain who is then exposed to the Judging Eye, and we get a baby pumped full of qirri in the womb, who may or may not be a receptacle for the soul of Kellhus.  You're right about the reunion with Kellhus though

Not to mention all ensouled creatures across Earwa can perceive the No-God. Whatever his reasons, the Aspect-Emperor spoke true and wasn't warring across the wastes of Earwa against a myth.
Ahh, but your assuming its over and thats the only two options. As i said in other threads, Kellhus came to believe in humans. I think he tricked Ajokli, knowing Ajokli nature and there is textual evidence inthe books (see Cnauir and whirlwind).  What if Kellhus is warring on the Outside to defeat the 100 and thus changing the nature of damnation, no big bad gods to munch on your souls. And, has faith that humanity can and will overcome the No-God. As CondYoke pointed out if the Gods can see all of time then if the world was ever shut, they couldnt see anything...ever. Meaning that somehow, someway humanity will defeat the No-God. Anyhow, your acting as if the story is complete and its not. There is still more to come.

And now they believe.  They should have no doubts whatsoever that the No-God is real and must be stopped.  They may even start worshiping Kellhus as some kind of martyred god- which could possibly be part of his plan all along.  There is definitely more story to be told.

I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology, and it has definitely changed the way I think about things.

I'm pretty sure I've seen an interview with Bakker where he says he wanted to write about what it would be like to live in a world with an end point.  I reckon is how that end point comes about that is important.  If damnation is ended by butchering the population to such a degree that only 144,000 people are left alive, then I don't see that as a satisfactory resolution, and I'd suggest there may be other ways to achieve the same result that will come to light in the third series.

I agree about the philosophy and psychology.  Educational, and in a generally entertaining and engaging way.
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« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2017, 10:10:56 pm »

Some of the plotlines have (for me) little sense without a continuation.
For example, Achamian&Mimara: what will be the point of travelling all through Earwa, endure Cil-Aujas, the Mop, a dragon, Ishual, etc, and then arrive to the Great Ordeal and don't use the fucking Judging Eye, share at most some pathetic words with Kellhus (sparing him useful information about Cnaiur, Ishual... and not really confronting him) and don't do a fucking thing in the great battle of their time???

We get day-to-day experience of a Nonman Erratic, we find out Ishual has been destroyed by the Consult, we get a POV from a Dunyain who is then exposed to the Judging Eye, and we get a baby pumped full of qirri in the womb, who may or may not be a receptacle for the soul of Kellhus.  You're right about the reunion with Kellhus though

Yes, I love their travel and all the marvels they experienced but I hoped some kind of epic conclusion when they reached their destination near Golgoterath.
Maybe the point of that plotline was mainly the travel, as in the Ithaka poem of C. Cavafy, but I always expect that Ulysses take his revenge when reaches Ithaka, not just babble some pathetic words with their enemies, the very ones that want to fuck his wife and take his kingdom, and then go away with the tail between his legs.

But now Bakker has spoken and confirmed that we will have more qirri, yeah, more books, so I'm so fucking relieved that nothing can bother me.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 10:14:56 pm by Woden »
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