[TUC Spoilers]What was the point

  • 108 Replies
  • 3107 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

obstinate

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
« Reply #90 on: July 30, 2017, 12:04:16 pm »
This ending was typical Bakker. None of his books, at least among the ones I've read, have unambiguously happy or unambiguously good endings. In fact, none end much better than this.

I do understand the desire to have things tied up neatly with a bow. I feel such urges myself. But Bakker doesn't seem to think much of people who can't do without clarity, at least if the chapter quotations and Achamian's words are any guide. This type of ending was telegraphed a long way off.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 4417
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #91 on: July 30, 2017, 03:42:23 pm »
Circumfix Madness too for defending blasphemy.

I will always facilitate dissent ;).

I was just joking about a pitchfork.

Haha, sorry madness, just trying to prove Bakker's point re: mob violence, online or otherwise. Just like when he waded into gamer gate and was attacked from both sides, here we are about to scourge a person who has read the books! And that's always my first goal. Read it. Then judge.

Lol. Thanks :P.

I worry too. Observations about the exact amount of chapters spent dedicated to needless, lavishly detailed, debasement is an immaculate token of pedantry.

It was a mistake to include it in any significant length when core components of the story remain illusive and deeply unresolved. There was a period of debate, but now that the article is available on both sides of the pond we can safely move from the debate of whether or not it was a mistake and firmly embrace that it was an error and now opine just how grave of one.

Your mileage may vary and all that.

But also interpretations by any one reader are flawed. The text makes more sense than the most inattentive and confused reader supposes and less sense than the most confident reader interprets.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

EdwardReynolds

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
« Reply #92 on: August 08, 2017, 08:10:22 am »
I couldn't disagree more. The world ends so nothing matters? You could make the case that the events in the books matter precisely because they bring about the end of the world, but that is kind of beside the point. To me it wouldn't matter more if everyone ended up living happily ever after like in the Lord of the Rings. Its a fantasy world, its not real, it doesn't matter what happens to it either way. What matters is what happens to the person reading the books. To me it was an extremely interesting exploration of different philosophies as well as psychology...
If I've given the impression I'm after a Disney hero win, that wasnt my intention. Oedipus' tale is an example of a non happy ending I enjoyed. I will hesitantly chuck The Walking Dead comics up as another example of non-Disney hero wins. Or any of Bakkers previous 6 books in the series, theyre grim but not as blunt as  "And so the Great Ordeal of Anisurimbor Kellhus ended in blood and butchery" or whatever the final sentence was.

The world hasnt ended in the Erawa universe at the end of TUC, it has just recycled. The only thing that immediately stands out as different this time is that the Scylvendi weren't directly involved in the final battle this time (bar as a vehicle for Kelmomas to get into the Ark via the-thing-that-is-Serwe)

The fact that there is an apparent third series does change the tone of things massively to be fair, during my original read I had no idea there would be books 8+ so it felt like a cheap inversion of a trope at the last second to cap a beautiful series. More books mean loose ends are not so poinless.

----------
Im being very black and white about this ... Its just an unsatisfying, cliche resumption of the status quo.

What am i missing here?

I don't get what you mean by "LOL bad guys win and all the good guys die LOLOL".... Can you explain a bit more what you mean?

Yeah if you could be more specific that would be quite helpful. Its really hard to address your question without any context.

What parts bothered you? What specifically was a let down? Who do you feel are the good guys, and for that matter, the bad guys, and which group do you believe won?

That generic 'critique', if you can call it that, can be applied to just about anything with only the slightest of adjustments....

So if you'd like to have a conversation about what you think, you're going to have to, well, let people know what you actually think, otherwise there's nothing here to discuss.
----------

Right fair points I suppose.
The context is this series of books, and the good/bad guys is shorthand for the groups any reader coming into this book would very quickly come to formulate. As stated in the OP for brevity I stripped my comment down to black/white and threw the philosophy aside.
 Sure Kellhus is theorised to be the bad guy - hes also explicitley stated by the author (possibly in the AMA post my OP) as having the goal of ending the Resumtion and Damnation of the human race.
Akka has the same base motivation as Kellhus, but based on the compultion of his dreams. His genuine love of Esmi, Inrau, Zin, Mim, his children/child et. al., to spare them the horror of Apocalypse and Damnation (he wont share the Gnosis with Mim) at the knowing expense of his own Damnation makes him a good guy. He sure does murder a witch for Schoolman duty, and countless other bad things.
Proyas, Saubon, Sorweel etc.


Essentially if someone has a POV, barring some small and brief exceptions, they are 'good'. Or use the razor of selfishness, the Consult is obessed with self preservation and all else be damned. They have never  even had the shield of the greater good rasied in their name, they just want to save themselves. Kosoter is a great example of this, he just doesnt want to go to hell and will do anything to avoid it.

If you wanted to argue the middle ground that there are no bad guys, this makes sense in the context of PoN as it is essentially just two religeons going head to head. Sure one side is being manipulated by my proposed 'bad' guys, and their belief system is also predicated on writings likewise provided by the 'bad' guys - which is just another couple nails in the manipulation coffin. Men of the Tusk not only openly believe they are Good,  they are the easiest faction we the reader as a bunch of (im generalising) westerners living in societies based on Christain values can relate to.
Everyone thinks they themself is the good.

Perhaps I'm an ass, but having to explain who i mean by good/bad really feels like retreading ground. Especially for a comment that states it is stripping things down to the core. This world is painted in dark greys, has objective morality different to our own morality, has gods and demons that need to feed on human souls (presumptively to survive) but the basics of story tellings are still here.

Gods and the Consult might not be bad in the Chaotic-Evil DnD sense, but moraly to us as readers they are still designed to be repulsive.

Digression: I appreciate your moderation, have had a few hours trawling the forums today and i rarely see mods on forums that give a shit as much as you do, so for what its worth keep it up :) Madness is likewise doing a great job.
On the whole this place seems to be one of the least toxic places ive come accross...barring the start to my own thread haha!
----------
Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?

Huh, weird I'd always assumed the Nail to be the moon. Seems its just a bright star which may or may not be something more....
Is there any reference to a moon? Im sure there are some passages that happen at night under the light of the Nail being stronger sometimes then at others. Maybe I'm dreaming.


Yellow

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
« Reply #93 on: August 08, 2017, 09:37:03 am »
Can't remember where it's stated, but the Nail only appeared in the sky shortly before Arkfall, the implication being that it's something to do with the Inchoroi.
You are the fist that beats us.

Zealously

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
« Reply #94 on: August 08, 2017, 12:16:02 pm »
Can't remember where it's stated, but the Nail only appeared in the sky shortly before Arkfall, the implication being that it's something to do with the Inchoroi.

See, I may be in the minority here, but this is the kind of unanswered question that I don't mind at all. The Nail of Heaven has never really held a prominent role in the story (although it has had its fair share of symbolic meaning - but then, in TSA, what hasn't?) and I am a proponent of the whole "Worldbuilding by omission"-theory. The more is revealed, the more is stripped away. It is not feasible, obviously, to keep everything in obscurity for the alluring sense of mystery, but it's a bit like the scalper's heart in Cil-Aujas (although I did betray myself and ask the man himself in his Reddit AMA) - it doesn't hurt to not know, but not knowing gives Eärwa another layer of reality. The idea that it has to do with the Inchoroi is exciting, and I hope it's never confirmed  ;D

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 4417
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #95 on: August 09, 2017, 03:45:09 am »
Digression: I appreciate your moderation, have had a few hours trawling the forums today and i rarely see mods on forums that give a shit as much as you do, so for what its worth keep it up :) Madness is likewise doing a great job.
On the whole this place seems to be one of the least toxic places ive come accross...barring the start to my own thread haha!

Aw, shucks :).

I will say, despite our unorthodox moderation, it's the people who make this place special.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4682
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #96 on: August 10, 2017, 05:28:21 pm »
Sorry ER, I'm used to having a lot of context for what individuals around here think. We've been so small for so long that the handful that hang around have had time to get used to eachothers shorthand. Then overnight the forum went from 5-10 posts a day to 100+ with 10x the normal number of posters lol. I'm glad our flailing around trying to keep things reasonable didn't drive you off. Regarding 'for what its worth': its worth a lot. Thanks ;) .

And I appreciate you humoring my request for more information. Its endlessly fascinating to me the myriad interpretations of the books, even if I do get overly excited. More importantly though, there's very little consensus on what is 'obviously' going on within TSA, and I prefer not to push my assumptions onto other's words. Given that we're a few dozen posts in on this topic, I'm not sure what's left to discuss, but if something was missed, just bring it up again.

Also, did i miss anything re: the Nail of Heaven or is that left untouched also?

Huh, weird I'd always assumed the Nail to be the moon. Seems its just a bright star which may or may not be something more....
Is there any reference to a moon? Im sure there are some passages that happen at night under the light of the Nail being stronger sometimes then at others. Maybe I'm dreaming.

I don't know how many years and how many re-reads I went through before someone pointed out to me that the Nail wasn't the Moon.

There's a handful of references to the Moon, moonlight, etc., and even a few passages where the brightness of the Nail is directly contrasted with the Moon.

In the text, or specifically TUC, there is no further details about the Nail. However, in the Bakker sanctioned "History of Earwa" from Wert a la Wertzone, there is a brief mention that the Nail appears shortly (a few year?) prior to Arkfall, and that it actually appears to 'shoot' a deathstarian beam at the ground just before the Ark explodes into Agongorea
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 1774
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #97 on: August 10, 2017, 05:43:24 pm »
In the text, or specifically TUC, there is no further details about the Nail. However, in the Bakker sanctioned "History of Earwa" from Wert a la Wertzone, there is a brief mention that the Nail appears shortly (a few year?) prior to Arkfall, and that it actually appears to 'shoot' a deathstarian beam at the ground just before the Ark explodes into Agongorea

Maybe I am missing that part, but all it said was that three years before Arkfall the "star's" intensity waxed and then waned.

Three years later the Ark "landed."

TGO told us there was an explosion before the landing.  And TUC told us what that explosion was.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 4682
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #98 on: August 10, 2017, 05:56:29 pm »
Alright, well I got it half right ;) Thanks H.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Yellow

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
« Reply #99 on: August 10, 2017, 07:22:59 pm »
The waxing and waning makes it sound like a nova or something. Maybe the Inchoroi did something to the star? That's assuming they're literally going from one star system to the next, wiping out life in one giant daisy chain. I doubt we'll ever really know.
You are the fist that beats us.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 4417
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2017, 12:20:32 pm »
Sorry ER, I'm used to having a lot of context for what individuals around here think. We've been so small for so long that the handful that hang around have had time to get used to eachothers shorthand. Then overnight the forum went from 5-10 posts a day to 100+ with 10x the normal number of posters lol. I'm glad our flailing around trying to keep things reasonable didn't drive you off. Regarding 'for what its worth': its worth a lot. Thanks ;) .

+1
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

gtownwr

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2017, 03:53:43 am »
Having said it in other places, I'll be brief. I agree with the "What the hell?" sentiment for TUC's end overall. I was loving the first half of the book, but as soon as the attack on the Ark begins, I was feeling a bit let down. I was expecting more of a look into the Ark and Golgotterath itself, more of what the stories and Akka's Dreams had made me envision. We didn't really get any of that; just a lot of fighting outside of it and a look into the Golden Room.

Many of the plotlines that were set up aren't concluded (Crabicus, Ciphrang Assassin, Meppa, to name a few off the top of my head), and that's without acknowledging that the book creates a huge amount of questions at the end without explaining any of them. I think the ending would have felt more satisfying if it all hadn't happened so fast. However, right as you're expecting to get all of the answers, the entire plot turns on its head and the book ends.

Now, I love the way the story concludes by itself. The last line gives me chills. I think ending the story on disaster like this is awesome. I just wish that it had felt more coherent and less rushed. Keeping in mind that this is the conclusion to a series of books, I feel a bit cheated. I think you're going to get this opinion from most people who aren't aware that a third series might be written (Just take a look at the Goodreads reviews- they read much like OP's post and don't seem to know there is a planned third series).

I think if Bakker were to come out and say, "Yes there will definitely be a third series", I would feel better about it. As it stands, I liked the book a lot, but I have very mixed feelings about the ending.

THIS.  Are Akka and his ladies alive?  Is Kayutas alive?  With no Chorae in the Carapace, why didn't they just sorcery it down?  What's going on with Malowebi's body?  What about crab hand, and Meppa?  What about the light spear?  Its down there at the base of the horn somewhere.  There were just WAY too many loose ends for me to feel satisfaction finishing the series.  If there is more, then I'm ok with the loose ends, but if not...  I would be very sad, because this has been by far my favorite book series I have ever read and this kind of anti-climactic, quick ending would be a great disappointment to me as a reader.  Even though I was a staunch Khellus supporter, I even ok with him having died because of a miscalculation (although I hope he is still working from the Outside and that it was his plan all along to eventually be working exclusively from the Outside).  But I feel no CLOSURE.

The Horned Mod

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Momurai
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2017, 06:36:23 pm »
Regarding the Nail of Heaven, I have inclinations of varying degrees that it is analogous to historical cosmological notions of the "Central Fire", in addition to being (at the very least) a reference to the Secret Fire of Tolkien' Legendarium.

I have better links describing this idea tucked away somewhere, but one can gloss over Hermeticism in general to find some(?) of the ideas I'm referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism

Monkhound

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 144
    • View Profile
« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2017, 06:41:20 pm »
From the very first mention in the book, I've always read the Nail of Heaven to be an equivalent of the Polestar/ Polaris, the way it's used in navigation.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Woden

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 240
    • View Profile
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2017, 06:48:40 pm »
From the very first mention in the book, I've always read the Nail of Heaven to be an equivalent of the Polestar/ Polaris, the way it's used in navigation.

Yes, but the variation of its light intensity before the crush of the Ark implies some relation.

Is it a portal/wormhole? Is it an inchoroi spacial station?
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.