[TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang

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Athorn "FB" Gallizur

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« on: August 26, 2017, 04:13:20 am »
Been meaning to make this thread for a while now, but I was motivated to do so after catching Duskweaver's great thread on a similar topic, but I recommend you all read if you haven't already: http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2402.0


I'll keep my hypothesis short and sweet...

Esmenet is a mighty Ciphrang. Like Cnaiur, who is a veritable Prince of Hell, so too is Esemenet a "Princess of Heaven", shall we say - and perhaps our only example of the elusive "angelic Ciphrang" which RSB mentioned in an interview years ago.

Consider:

-Mimara's JE can not only see the morality of a person but also their destiny and fate in the Outside.

-It's also capable of distinguishing between someone is merely damned (or saved), and someone who is actually one of the entities dishing out the damnation (or salvation).

-Note that when Mimara sees the Scalpers, or almost anyone that's damned up until TGO/TUC, she sees their souls being passed between demons in Hell and so forth.

-In contrast, when Mimara sees Cnaiur, and later the Ordealsmen at Golgotterath, she sees them as the demons, rather than one simply being fed upon by them. This is especially true in Cnaiur's case, who's not merely a Ciphrang but a so-called Prince of Hell, and again from an AMA/Q&A with the author, we know that certain people's souls are so strong they begin to "turn" early...perhaps when they're closer to their own death?

-As we also know, the Outside and all of its inhabitants exist atemporally. People don't so much become a Ciphrang, but rather some people always were a Ciphrang.

-This could also explain some of Cnaiur -- and now perhaps Esmenet's -- more extraordinary qualities. For example, Cnaiur's in his mid 60's by TUC, yet he's physically just as powerful as he always was, perhaps even more powerful, and in addition, he seems to have not aged almost whatsoever.

Compare with Esmenet, who should be in her fifties, yet is consistently described as being just as beautiful and healthy as she was 20 years ago. There's even a sequence in TGO where Esmenet actually sort of freaks out about it and wonders what kind of "abomination" would be so unnatural. It's even more poignant when you remember how the last Empress of the Three-Seas, Istriya, also had rather unnatural beauty for her age by the end, because she actually was was an abomination who had been replaced by a skin-spy.

Finally, it seems fitting that out of the original cast of series, we get two of them who end up on opposite ends of the moral and cosmic spectrum...

ETA: Thanks to Madness for grabbing this quote from the author:

Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 09:33:39 pm by The Horned Mod »

Woden

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« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2017, 07:16:09 am »
Nice point.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 10:59:34 am »
So, if Cnaiur becomes Ajokli, maybe Esmenet becomes Yatwer?

On the one hand, I hate that idea, because it screws up Ajokli's long-hinted 'special status', as well as the theme of 99 stones plus 1, if he is not the only one of the Hundred who lived as a mortal.

But on the other hand, the idea that Esme spent years believing Yatwer hunted her and her children, when she was actually Yatwer all along... that's just too cool to dismiss.

There is definitely something special about Esmenet, anyway. I'd actually not really noticed the agelessness. But she also seems able to do things that would (supposedly) get anyone else damned (being a whore and using sorcerous birth-control; razing a big chunk of Carythusal in a rage; killing Naree even though she herself saw it as morally wrong; plotting to murder her own husband), and yet still shines with the "promise of Paradise".
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Yellow

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« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2017, 12:19:58 pm »
Maybe that's why she's saved? Because she tried to kill Kellhus.
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Madness

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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 03:29:05 pm »
Since only demonic (as opposed to angelic) Ciphrang can be summoned and trapped in the World, practitioners of the Daimos can never trust the reports they receive: the so-called Damnation Archives in the Scarlet Spires are rumoured to be filled with wild contradictions. The Damned themselves only know that they are damned, and never why.
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MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2017, 05:41:52 pm »
Quote from:  Duskweaver
So, if Cnaiur becomes Ajokli, maybe Esmenet becomes Yatwer?

I've had similar thoughts, though in don't believe it to be the case. But, just for the sake of thread.

Akka- Anagke/Fate
Serwa- Onkhis
Esme- Yatwer
Cnaüir- Gilgöal
Ajokli- Kellhus and this is why he can't be found.
And there are other connections we could make, just can't think of them now. I just don't believe Cnaüir became Ajokli and I don't believe the what comes after determines what comes before as the universal rule of Earwa. We have too many instances of what comes before determining what comes after.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2017, 06:14:05 pm »
Quote from:  Duskweaver
So, if Cnaiur becomes Ajokli, maybe Esmenet becomes Yatwer?

I've had similar thoughts, though in don't believe it to be the case. But, just for the sake of thread.

Akka- Anagke/Fate
Serwa- Onkhis
Esme- Yatwer
Cnaüir- Gilgöal
Ajokli- Kellhus and this is why he can't be found.
And there are other connections we could make, just can't think of them now. I just don't believe Cnaüir became Ajokli and I don't believe the what comes after determines what comes before as the universal rule of Earwa. We have too many instances of what comes before determining what comes after.
It's been stated directly that Cnaiür becomes possessed by Ajokli in the AMA tho.
Quote
For me, personally, Cnaiur/Ajokli wading into the hoard, screaming at the Whirlwind, looking for Kellhus. I wrote the first version of that scene in my 20's if you can believe it. Countless things in my life were tied off by it.

MSJ

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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 06:23:40 pm »
Right possessed, so was Kellhus. And, Cnaüir was possessed by Gilgoäl in TTT. Which is why I don't believe Cnaüir became Ajokli. He was just useful for Ajokli at that moment.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Yellow

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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2017, 06:59:07 pm »
What are you using for evidence that Cnauir was possessed by Gilgaol in TTT? That wasn't my take at all.
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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2017, 12:32:09 am »
There is a part when he stands against the Nansur where he looks like he is aspected by Gilgaol, iirc. Possession is really stretching it imo.
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MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2017, 12:54:14 am »
Quote from:  Curethan
There is a part when he stands against the Nansur where he looks like he is aspected by Gilgaol, iirc. Possession is really stretching it imo.

Right, at Joktha. And, Conphas muses on how everyone seen dread Gilgoäl in Cnaüir shadow. Only, in PoN Bakker never really played with the Gods and you didn't know if possession was even possible. He even stated he intentionally wrote it this way. But, in hindsight, I'd say it was clear that he was possessed and was foreshadowing for the role the Gods would play in TAE.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Monkhound

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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 03:20:25 pm »
There is a part when he stands against the Nansur where he looks like he is aspected by Gilgaol, iirc. Possession is really stretching it imo.

Wasn't there also a scene where Saubon had the same with Gilgaöl in TWP? Thought it was even at or after Mengedda.
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MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 03:25:55 pm »
Quote from:  Monkhound
Wasn't there also a scene where Saubon had the same with Gilgaöl in TWP? Thought it was even at or after Mengedda.

I am not sure, I'd have to go back and look. I know he was made Battle Celebrant by the priests of Gilgoal though.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,