Unholy Consultation - *SUPER SPOILERIFIC*

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2017, 12:59:21 am »
Hello, Mr. Bakker!

First, I want to congratulate you on finishing "The Aspect-Emperor" at long last! I'm very grateful for your work, and have no desire to blame it or you for anything. And I'm very satisfied with the ending.

I actually have quite a complicated relationship with the Second Apocalypse. I couldn't read "A Song of Ice and Fire" (and have no plans to do so, as well as only superficial plans to watch "Game of Thrones") because it was too violent and cynical for my taste. Instead, I've read wikis on it, following the bits of the plot and setting that interested me. When I first heard about the Second Apocalypse (browsing TV Tropes, actually), that was my first instinct, too. But then a strange thing happened. Wikis and spoilers actually clarified nothing for me, and after some consideration I began reading the books themselves. And so it is: "A Song of Ice and Fire" is too grisly for me, but I've read the Second Apocalypse (more than once, and will re-read it again). Needless to say, I have no regrets.

And the concept that first and foremost caught my fancy way back when? The No-God.

It's my belief that you've spectacularly succeeded in your quest to make a work that challenges, even abhors, but keeps people reading all the same, imparting thought and making them more then they were. It most certainly did in my case. If you're proud of your accomplishments, then you should be! I can only concur.

At this point I have two questions for you:

1. I should not expect Earwa to be perfectly thought out in every respect, since no writer is God, but there seem to be actualized philosophical principles in the world of the Second Apocalypse. Some of them are created by the Tekne (the Inverse Fire and the No-God), some have unknown origin (the Outside, possibly the Judging Eye), and some are sorcerous (Chorae, though I feel only to an extent). This troubles me since there are no real world alternatives to such things, and so I can't relate. Which means any kind of logical reasoning about the nature of the world of Earwa is fundamentally flawed (more than usual), because those are things in themselves, working as you want them to or as needed for the narrative. Could you comment on this issue?

2. In my opinion, there is (after the end of "The Unholy Consult") one and only one undoubtedly heroic character in the Second Apocalypse and that character is Anasurimbor Serwa. She was, of course, by no means perfect, but her intentions and actions (as I see them, and my sight is also by no means perfect) speak for themselves. She followed her father, because she wanted to save the world. She battled the Horde and suffered hardships of the Great Ordeal. She lived through Ishterebinth. She saved Moenghus. She was capable of love, and loved Sorweel. She mourned him when he died. She saved Mimara, Achamian, and Esmenet before attending to her mission, which makes her human as opposed to Kellhus. Oh, and she also killed a dragon with all its retinue. A dragon that kept the entirety of the Great Ordeal at bay. Some people argue that your books are misogynistic. And yet the most heroic character in them is a woman. Are you laughing now? I know I would be, quite evilly so!
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 11:51:21 am by SmilerLoki »

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2017, 01:03:30 am »
Shrewd observation regarding Kelmomas (I wasn't sure anyone would pick up on the conversation in the tent), though it isn't bicameralism so much as the absence of identity that's the crux.
Does that means he is in some sense like a Sranc? Is that why the Gods can't see him?

Also, can you expand a bit on what is meant by "You realized the Mission was not to master Cause via Logos, but to master Cause via Cause, to endlessly refashion the Near to consume and incorporate the Far." ? Does it mean that more and more elaborated machinery will converge to a self-moving soul?

CondYoke

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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2017, 01:14:54 am »
Did we see any of the Mutilated in previous books?

themerchant

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« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2017, 01:46:11 am »
Not to derail this thread, but the Baby Kellhus Theory (henceforth to be referred to as M+A=K) isn't contingent on Kellhus knowing Mimara has TJE.  Its only presumption is that Kellhus is now a baby.

I find this theory to be as funny as it is unlikely. Hurry up and get him weaned and into his nappy Mimara the No-God is coming.

themerchant

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« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2017, 02:22:28 am »
Will you explore the mechanism that allowed Inaru to reach from the void in a dream and tell Akka about the Consult.

Was it Onkis that told Inaru to run? (the first series seems to have loads of wee interactions that could be interpreted as "god whispers")

What did he find in Uncle Holy Quarters?

The skin-spy with a soul, Old Father Moenghus made him didn't he? So that Maitha could unveil him and gain the mandate trust?

Crtha

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« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2017, 02:35:26 am »
I find this theory to be as funny as it is unlikely. Hurry up and get him weaned and into his nappy Mimara the No-God is coming.

"I'm Tiny Kellhus, bitches!" :D

Probably I am too late (it's the Erratic in me) but I'll drop a couple of lines in hope...

1. TUC imo = Fantastic work Scott, bravo.

2. C'naiur's fate: I thought this was an obvious case of inverted-ascension (inverted because Ajokli exists across the age, despite his temporal genesis occurring at the end of a frame of existence).

The Most Violent of Men becoming the Prince of Hate was a stunning scene.

But based on other readers' reactions I'm quite alone on that and so, I'm probably wrong about it.
Could you comment on that scene and C'naiur's AE storyline in general?

3. Would you say that Koringhus, Mimara and the Inverse Fire were intended to reveal the veracity of Oblivion, Redemption and Damnation or should readers consider these scenes with suspicion?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 02:46:03 am by Crtha »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Bolivar

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« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2017, 03:40:24 am »
Scott, congratulations on finishing the Aspect Emperor and thank you so much for sharing your world with us. We know how much you've fought to bring this story to us and we're fortunate to have this caliber of fantasy to enjoy. When I first read The Judging Eye, I thought the Sakarpus intro was the best opening chapter I've read in a fantasy, so it's only appropriate that you've equally raised the bar with the climax sequence at Golgotterath. Bravo.

I'm most curious about whether this really is the conclusion to the story you originally envisioned all those years ago. You once said that if you (God forbid) had an accident after publishing TUC, you would be able to die with the biggest grin on your face. Do you still stand by that now and if so, why? With the next installment taking place a few weeks after the Resumption, it feels like this cycle hasn't concluded yet.

Second, do you think your work over at Three Pound Brain has removed some of the mystique of the series? When I read the Prince of Nothing, the observations about free will and self-deception were harrowing in part because you didn't know whether they were a) devastating objective truths, b) illustrating the depths of cynicism of the POV character, or c) something interesting the character stumbled upon, conceited at their own self-destructive insights. Now it seems like the definitive answer is all of the above. After reading so much of your nonfiction work, these observations started to feel heavy handed in the Aspect Emperor, because I now know you're committed to disseminating this perspective, or at least getting folks from different walks of life to start thinking about them, in light of where our civilization is headed. Specifically, when I read Ben Cain's guest posts about the tension between mythopoeia and science, it virtually obliterated the mystery of the Inchoroi for me. The Golden Room sequence was everything I hoped for but there was a remanant of disappointment that some of the revelations were things I had already been posting about for years.

Finally, last year, I asked you on Reddit why Cnaiur and Kellhus reappeared so late in the narrative. It felt like Cnaiur really should've been there since the beginning, like the other three main characters, whereas Kellhus felt like you were throwing a bone to rabid fans, since he only gets a few very brief passages at the opening before his POV disappears again. With Malowebi being used to convey Kellhus' scenes without a POV (an awesome choice IMO), it seems like we were never really meant to get a Kellhus' perspective in The Aspect Emperor, making his Great Ordeal sections even more out of place. You said you would be able to explain this after publishing TUC - now I'm calling it in!

Thanks for engaging us here and I look forward to supporting your work in the future, fantasy and otherwise.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 03:44:05 am by Bolivar »

Wiseblood

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« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2017, 07:44:29 am »
Wow...answered several burning questions right off the bat (and without any goading. Didnt even make us work for it. Thank you).
 
Many excellent question asked,  and I hope that any that can be answered will be. So, its 2 40 am and just want to keep my first question short: The glossay entry for the Apocalypse states the Mandate Schoolmen are not the recognized authorities on the subject. Who is?

Ciogli

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« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2017, 08:04:27 am »
The identity of the Mutilated,  do you have their names and what are their relations to Kellhuss? They call him brother several times is that just a Dunyain thing or are they related?



Ciogli

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« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2017, 08:06:34 am »
On the Nonmen,  is that the last we will see of them or do the Cunuroi have one final hand to play?

Callan S.

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« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2017, 12:50:04 pm »
Perhaps we can ask on theme - is there a theme in regards to Mim seeing Esme being 'saved'? I mean, it's nice that she 'got out', but 'saved'? I mean, it's rather like the news when they go gah gah over the lottery jackpot being X million - as if it's good thing, when that took hundreds of thousands of people losing for it to occur and for some single person to maybe win it. Here is there a theme where our idea of love or care is basically backed by hate? Like treating it as good somehow, the idea Esme is saved - but that validates the system, a system that tortures so many. How can you be saved/happy when it's as such horrific expense?

Bollivar: Nice post :)

C'jara-Cinmoi

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« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2017, 01:48:17 pm »
The glossay entry for the Apocalypse states the Mandate Schoolmen are not the recognized authorities on the subject. Who is?

The author of the entry! There's allusions to scholarly rivalry and ego sprinkled throughout the EG.

The identity of the Mutilated,  do you have their names and what are their relations to Kellhuss? They call him brother several times is that just a Dunyain thing or are they related?


Ah... my first true RAFO! Sorry Ciogli. But I can say we are far from finished with the Sons of Imimorul.

C'jara-Cinmoi

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« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2017, 01:59:27 pm »
Okay, so I just spent 3 hours typing nonstop answering every question on the topic summary and only the last two posted... Oof...

Sorry guys. I'm shaking with rage at the moment. Not sure when I'll have a chance to get back to these... You might want to save them for the AMA.

jurble

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« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2017, 02:24:23 pm »
Oh man.  The very Gods work against us.

Wilshire

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« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2017, 02:54:43 pm »
Scott, I'm so sorry to hear that. The website has it's failings to be sure. Everyone is glad you're here, and I hope you know that while it might feel like you wasted your time with the posts that didn't make it, all your time is greatly appreciated.
I wish we had better servers, better web support, and a less glitchy forum, but we just dont and we apologise for the gross inconvenience.

I know it's too late now, but a couple things:

I never submit a large post without highlighting it first and copying it. That way if the post fails you've got it 'saved' and can just paste it right after.

Often times if you hit the back arrow on the browser you'll get your whole post back as written - it's a cached version the website holds temporarily.

One of the other conditions of possibility.