[TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 02:54:13 pm »
Quote from:  Madness
To the bold, I'm not sure that's confirmed - mind you, I haven't read through the thread in full yet.

I asked if Kellhus made it to the Outside, Bakkers response was, "Well, Ajokli cant find him."

So, we also know he's not a baby, which was straight up confirmed. His answer to my question would suggest that he did indeed trick the Trickster. Either a Decapitant or he's in his own lil niche in the Outside somewhere. Id say that the Decapitant theory is most likely.

Given that answer and given the glossary entry on the Decapitants I think the most likely explanation is that he is hiding in the head next to Malowebi.

I don't think he tricked Ajokli or that Kellhus made a move to hide. I think he just got plain stuck in the other Decapitant.
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MSJ

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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 03:37:51 pm »
How, when Kellhus clearly comes back before being choraed. Its clearly Kellhus who says, "Kel...what?" (Paraphrasing).

So at that point he wasnt in a decapitants head...correct? And, it sure seems after reading those scenes again, that he goaded Esme to release Kel. No, i think he tricked Ajokli. He has come to believe in humanity. He needed Ajokli to defeat the Consult, but was never going to allow a hell on Earth.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Yellow

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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 07:28:05 pm »
How, when Kellhus clearly comes back before being choraed. Its clearly Kellhus who says, "Kel...what?" (Paraphrasing).

I don't think that's necessarily true. It could be Ajokli pretending to be him. Before Kellhus enters the Golden Room, Malowebi notes that he does a lot of surveyors chanting. Maybe he's giving Ajokli his head. So knows, is what I'm saying. I don't don't take anything for granted any more.
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Yellow

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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 07:40:06 pm »
Sorry, that was all on my phone. For surveyors, read sorcerous. Other typos also abound.

Basically, it's a good point but I assume nothing. Ajokli might not be able to find Kellhus because he's on the belt, or because he's in the Outside and the Outside is shut. I assume nothing any more!
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2017, 08:07:31 pm »
Quote from:  Yellow
I don't think that's necessarily true. It could be Ajokli pretending to be him. Before Kellhus enters the Golden Room, Malowebi notes that he does a lot of surveyors chanting. Maybe he's giving Ajokli his head. So knows, is what I'm saying. I don't don't take anything for granted any more.

No, no, no we cant go changing the rules. The Gods are blind to Kel, even Ajokli. Layers of revelation, remember thats what makes Bakker unique. Kel was never Ajokli's Narindar, thats whats so funny. Kel stopped The White-Luck Warrior because he wasnt in the timeline that Yatwer had seen to kill Kellhus. He essentially made a alternate timeline by showing up in the throne room. Same in the Golden Room. If anything, Kellhus realized this and used it to his advantage.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2017, 09:50:24 pm »
Quote from:  Yellow
Basically, it's a good point but I assume nothing. Ajokli might not be able to find Kellhus because he's on the belt, or because he's in the Outside and the Outside is shut. I assume nothing any more!

But the Outside isnt shut. Thats the point. The Outside wont be shut for a long while. The last time the No-God walked it was for 11 years. The Outside will only be shut when the population goes below 144,000. And, here's the thing, Earwa is just one continent on thus planet. There is at least two more continents, not to mention what might be beyond the great sea. So, if Kellhus is in the Outside warring against the Gods to stop munching of souls or some other plan, there is plenty of time. And, whats to say that the 144,000 prophecy is even true?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Blackstone

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2017, 09:56:04 pm »
Look closely at what Bakker said:
Quote
Um, Kellhus is no baby.
Do you see what I see?
Quote
Kellhus is no baby.
Look closer.
Quote
no baby.

Kellhus is the No-Baby.

Ha ha ha ha. Nice!
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codebread

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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2017, 01:45:42 am »
Look closely at what Bakker said:
Quote
Um, Kellhus is no baby.
Do you see what I see?
Quote
Kellhus is no baby.
Look closer.
Quote
no baby.

Kellhus is the No-Baby.

Ha ha ha ha. Nice!

Yeah I felt that comment went very underappreciated  ;)

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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2017, 12:17:53 pm »
Given that answer and given the glossary entry on the Decapitants I think the most likely explanation is that he is hiding in the head next to Malowebi.

But, to what end then?  He'd be stuck on the belt of a pillar of salt, in the Golden Room.  What would the next step be?  I doubt they would let his body just sit there...

I think if he is somewhere, he must be outside the Ark now.  Could be a case of the double-switch with the other head.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2017, 12:47:50 pm »
The Second Apocalypse needs a bit more humour in the third series.

Either we get Tiny Rick Kellhus

-or-

we get Kellhus and Malowebi's heads trying to steer a bumbling, brokedown Bashrag from Golgoteroth to Zeum in an odd couple road trip.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Tyrin

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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2017, 01:05:31 pm »
He needed Ajokli to defeat the Consult

But Ajokli didn't defeat the Consult. In fact, if you assume Kellhus somehow orchestrated or knew about his own salting via chorae, then the Kelljokli scene makes absolutely no sense at all.

I mean, what did Ajokli accomplish? Killing one Dunyain and then allowing Kellhus to be salted? Kellhus could've managed to get himself salted quite trivially without Ajokli's intervention. The Kellhus-betraying-Ajokli interpretation only works if Ajokli actually accomplished something AND THEN was tricked by Kellhus. Since this didn't happen, we're basically left with two options: 1)Kellhus fucked up and got salted, didn't plan for this possibility and is uber-fucked (though Ajokli still can't find him) OR 2)Kellhus fucked up and got salted but has a contingency plan and is hiding, which is why Ajokli can't find him.

Kellhus realized this and used it to his advantage

But what possible "advantage" was to be gained by letting himself get salted in that moment? In the moment when Ajokli is doing his God-power asskicking, which is presumably exactly what he was supposed to be doing in this moment, what possible benefit is to be gained by stopping all of that? Kellhus could've allowed himself to be salted at any time with no help from Ajokli, and since Ajokli didn't even accomplish anything during the possession, it just makes no sense that this was all somehow intentional on Kellhus' part.

I'm not sure Kellhus is completely out of the picture, but I think it's very hard to dispute the fact that he legitimately fucked up. I think we've just been conditioned to see Kellhus never making mistakes so that some among us (I'm pointing to eternal Kellhus apologists like you, MSJ :) ) find it very hard to seriously believe that he just plain fucked up.

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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2017, 01:15:51 pm »
I'm not sure Kellhus is completely out of the picture, but I think it's very hard to dispute the fact that he legitimately fucked up. I think we've just been conditioned to see Kellhus never making mistakes so that some among us (I'm pointing to eternal Kellhus apologists like you, MSJ :) ) find it very hard to seriously believe that he just plain fucked up.

I think it is highly plausible that it is a repeat of the end Moe the Elder meets, in the sense that he failed to account for a perceptual horizon, conceded a blind-spot but dismissed it as a one that wasn't consequential.  And in the end, payed for it.  Curiously, it is possible that in the throws of Ajokli's possession, Kellhus wasn't even in control of his own body, so teleporting away might not have been an option and possibly little Kel could be outside Ajokli's power as well.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2017, 01:29:40 pm »
I mean, what did Ajokli accomplish? Killing one Dunyain and then allowing Kellhus to be salted? Kellhus could've managed to get himself salted quite trivially without Ajokli's intervention. The Kellhus-betraying-Ajokli interpretation only works if Ajokli actually accomplished something AND THEN was tricked by Kellhus. Since this didn't happen, we're basically left with two options: 1)Kellhus fucked up and got salted, didn't plan for this possibility and is uber-fucked (though Ajokli still can't find him) OR 2)Kellhus fucked up and got salted but has a contingency plan and is hiding, which is why Ajokli can't find him.
I'm completely on board with this line of reasoning.

There is, though, one notable possibility. Kellhus needed Ajokli in the material world as some kind of tool (a spanner in the works, perhaps), but could only accomplish this by being possessed. From that point on he needed to end the possession, which was accomplished in the Golden Room. It's unclear that Kellhus actually wanted to defeat the Dunsult at that moment. Many of his statements seem to imply he actually wanted them to succeed, at least partially. Then it's conceivable he might use their success to his own end. Unlike devices of Tekne, which need to be scrutinized to gain understanding of them (as opposed to the Dunsult, Kellhus had no opportunity to do so), the No-God has metaphysical significance; Kellhus potentially could have surmised its nature and effect and planned for them.

The only thing that seems to contradict this theory is Kellhus's surprise when he sees Kelmomas in the Golden Room. But we can't really trust Kellhus. On the other hand, there were four other Dunyain there, who could have seen through his deception and work out his overarching plan from there.

All of this also doesn't mean Kellhus is on the side of humanity. As a Dunyain, it's very likely his goal is to master his circumstances completely.

I do think Kellhus is not done for, but next time he appears, it would be in a diminished state. By design or by contingency, though, I cannot presently say.

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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2017, 01:42:32 pm »
Im not an eternal Kellhus apologist. I thought he fucked up when i read it. Look back at the first post i made after reading the book. I said as much and that he was simply dead. But, theorues abound and when i ask Bakker if Kellhus made it to the Outside he said, "Well, Ajokli cant find him.". 

Now, i 100% think things did not go the way Kellhus expected them to, or did they. One, i think Kellhus knew what Kel was that is from dialogue i Chapter 1. Why, why would he goad Esme to remove the chain? How do we explain that away? As always, things never add up all the way, either way. One thing i will tell you is i am not a Kellhus apologist. I know he is not infallible, he has done horrid things, but i do not for one second think he would let the world be turned into hell for Ajokli to save his hide. How, is that any better than just letting the No-God walk?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2017, 01:51:28 pm »
Oh, he needed Ajokli so he wouldnt be overcome Inverse Fire and be a slave to it and automatically go over to the Dunsult.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,