[TUC Spoilers]Decapitant, Baby or his own Niché

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2017, 01:55:33 pm »
Oh, he needed Ajokli so he wouldnt be overcome Inverse Fire and be a slave to it and automatically go over to the Dunsult.
That could have been accomplished just by striking a deal with Ajokli, for all we know.

Tyrin

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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2017, 02:37:40 pm »
Oh, he needed Ajokli so he wouldnt be overcome Inverse Fire and be a slave to it and automatically go over to the Dunsult.

Yeah that seems to be the biggest thing that Ajokli (passively) did that Kellhus needed him to do.

That could have been accomplished just by striking a deal with Ajokli, for all we know.

Possibly, though my interpretation of the scene (which could definitely be wrong) was that the reason that Kellhus saw himself "descending as hunger" was because he was seeing himself as Ajokli. Maybe that's not the case, but I think that based on everything we've seen about the Inverse Fire, it's likely that if Kellhus without possession views the Inverse Fire, he becomes a slave to damnation-avoidance since literally no one else has ever viewed it and not done the same, including the other Dunyain. Of course maybe Kellhus is just unique in his immunity to it, but it's hard to rule out Ajokli's presence being the main force behind his inoculation to the IF.

All that being said, I'm still very skeptical that the entire sum of what Kellhus hoped to achieve with his deal with Ajokli was to be immune to the Inverse Fire. While that's certainly a big benefit if that is indeed the reason for his immunity, interrupting Ajokli in the middle of his fight with the Dunsult and getting himself intentionally salted makes no sense to me.

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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2017, 02:45:26 pm »
Possibly, though my interpretation of the scene (which could definitely be wrong) was that the reason that Kellhus saw himself "descending as hunger" was because he was seeing himself as Ajokli. Maybe that's not the case, but I think that based on everything we've seen about the Inverse Fire, it's likely that if Kellhus without possession views the Inverse Fire, he becomes a slave to damnation-avoidance since literally no one else has ever viewed it and not done the same, including the other Dunyain. Of course maybe Kellhus is just unique in his immunity to it, but it's hard to rule out Ajokli's presence being the main force behind his inoculation to the IF.

All that being said, I'm still very skeptical that the entire sum of what Kellhus hoped to achieve with his deal with Ajokli was to be immune to the Inverse Fire. While that's certainly a big benefit if that is indeed the reason for his immunity, interrupting Ajokli in the middle of his fight with the Dunsult and getting himself intentionally salted makes no sense to me.

No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Tyrin

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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2017, 02:55:50 pm »
No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.

That's what I think as well. I think he needed Ajokli for the ass-kicking because as you say he was overmatched, which is why I think the fact that said ass-kicking was aborted by Kel's appearance means that Kellhus fucked up.

Madness

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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2017, 03:26:38 pm »
There is a thread for "Ajokli and the metaphysical whodunit."

It's just on the second page now because we've somehow become busy enough to have almost two pages of current topics :o!

So great 8). What a great community. They grow up so fast ;).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 03:34:42 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2017, 04:48:25 pm »
Ok, so he fucked up does seem to make the most sense and was what i thought after my initila read and before hearing theories. That said, Bakkkers response about Ajokli not being able to find him means his soul is somewhere other than hell. It could be in the Outside, very unlikely. Most likely, inside one of the Decapitants.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

spacemost

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« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2017, 07:05:46 pm »
Just some stray observations below, not sure what to make of them just yet:

Pg. 409 - 410
"And so life convulsed and life was expelled from the socket, drawn sheeted in blood from the suffocating real, the very muck of amniotic origin, and held exposed to the scrutiny of the cold Void, the hospice of prayer ... So that some essence might alight ... Some breath be drawn and screamed."

I think this alluding to souls entering the body at birth, specifically.

Pg. 415
"Light. Cold. Terror ... Breath. A convulsive wail of arrival ... Lost in the deluge of those departing."

The No-God has not yet resumed; a soul has entered the body of Akka and Mimara's son and it has been born.

Pg. 421 - 425
Unambiguous confirmation of the birth of the son. At this point, Kellhus has been fully subsumed by Ajokli ("[This] Is my place.")

On Page 422 we learn that there is a twin, and we know in hindsight that it will not live.

On Page 423, Malowebi spots Kelmomas threading his way towards Kellhus. On Page 426, we learn that the twin is a stillbirth. Now, I think it's safe to assume the scene in the Ark transpired quickly, with Kellhus being salted and Kelmomas tossed into the Ark, with the resumption beginning quickly enough to prevent the twin from receiving a soul. On Page 425, the Sranc "[crash] into impossible silence", which I believe indicates the rebirth of the No-God, and the stillbirth occurs after that.

Let's say Bakker was being cute with the "Kellhus is no baby" answer, I still don't see how Akka's son can possess Kellhus' soul as the body obtained its own soul prior to Kellhus being completely possessed by Ajokli, and especially if it really was Kellhus ('s soul) who uttered "K-Kel? How di-" (Pg. 443).

Then there's the line "What could not be grasped could not be broken" (Pg. 423) which appears after Ajokli/Kellhus declares "I am the Absolute", juxtaposed with Kellhus being salted after literally being grasped by a skin-spy holding a chorae.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 07:15:04 pm by spacemost »

themerchant

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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2017, 07:30:03 pm »
Kellhus is dead he saved himself.

littlegrice

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« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2017, 02:06:42 am »
No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.

That's what I think as well. I think he needed Ajokli for the ass-kicking because as you say he was overmatched, which is why I think the fact that said ass-kicking was aborted by Kel's appearance means that Kellhus fucked up.

Serwa mentions this somewhere, that her father, like all others, is over-matched.  He simply takes the battle DEEPER.  That is an important quote, I think.  We probably won't actually figure out what he did here until the No-God, but whatever it was, it was probably(as always) clever as shit.
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

Wilshire

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« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2018, 02:03:39 pm »
Many things to comment on. For my sanity I'm going to make several posts.

I'm not sure Kellhus is completely out of the picture, but I think it's very hard to dispute the fact that he legitimately fucked up.
I think it is highly plausible that it is a repeat of the end Moe the Elder meets, in the sense that he failed to account for a perceptual horizon, conceded a blind-spot but dismissed it as a one that wasn't consequential.  And in the end, payed for it.
So very satisfying to read these things :) .
Thematically PON and TAE are very similar in that regard. Moenghus Sr.'s role is pretty much a Mirror of Kellhus. They are even fighting for the same side (ostesibly to save humanity so they both say), spent about 30 years in the Three Seas, got the entire world to fight a war, and in the end were killed by their own son (and didn't see it coming).

Its unfortunate though that so much of PON remains obfuscated, as it would probably serve as a nice cipher for TUC.

The Second Apocalypse needs a bit more humour in the third series.

Either we get Tiny Rick Kellhus
...
Pickel Rick Bashrag Kellhus!

One of the other conditions of possibility.

Wilshire

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« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2018, 02:04:01 pm »
...two options: 1)Kellhus fucked up and got salted, didn't plan for this possibility and is uber-fucked (though Ajokli still can't find him) OR 2)Kellhus fucked up and got salted but has a contingency plan and is hiding, which is why Ajokli can't find him.
I'm completely on board with this line of reasoning.
Already discuss, but quoted for context.

There is, though, one notable possibility. Kellhus needed Ajokli in the material world as some kind of tool (a spanner in the works, perhaps), but could only accomplish this by being possessed. From that point on he needed to end the possession, which was accomplished in the Golden Room.
I had not considered this. That Kellhus' goal for Ajokli, specifically, was to remove him from the outside, which he planned to do by materializing him in Earwa, which unfortunately required him to be possessed.
That does re-frame his actions a bit. Maybe then his whole goal was to switch places with Ajokli, like the heads, except that he'd now be in the Outside (descending as a hunger) and Ajokli playing Apocalypse with his Four Horseman in Earwa.
I'd still say that his returning to Earwa just in time to get salted was not part of that plan.

It's unclear that Kellhus actually wanted to defeat the Dunsult at that moment. Many of his statements seem to imply he actually wanted them to succeed, at least partially. Then it's conceivable he might use their success to his own end.
I'd have to go back to confirm, but this is also and interesting contingency. That he actually wanted the Consult to win to a degree - though ending up in the sarcophagus was also probably not part of that plan.
It certainly ties in nicely with the above - bring Ajokli into the world, have him stuck in the sarcophagus and effectively seal him into the world, giving Kellhus time to plunder the Outside.

Unlike devices of Tekne, which need to be scrutinized to gain understanding of them (as opposed to the Dunsult, Kellhus had no opportunity to do so), the No-God has metaphysical significance; Kellhus potentially could have surmised its nature and effect and planned for them.
To suggest that Kellhus hadn't pondered the No-God is ridiculous of course, so certainly he had some theories.


The only thing that seems to contradict this theory is Kellhus's surprise when he sees Kelmomas in the Golden Room. But we can't really trust Kellhus. On the other hand, there were four other Dunyain there, who could have seen through his deception and work out his overarching plan from there.
Kind of touched on this already, but in this case it seems probably that Kellhus did not intend to return to the World and get salted.
Though I'll note that Moenghus meets much the same fate - maybe Moenghs Sr. and Kellhus ghosts are sitting around a la Star Wars, continuing to usher the next generation into enlightenment....

All of this also doesn't mean Kellhus is on the side of humanity. As a Dunyain, it's very likely his goal is to master his circumstances completely.
Indeed. Kellhus', or at the very least the dunyain's, true existence is means without ends. To dominate all circumstance.

I do think Kellhus is not done for, but next time he appears, it would be in a diminished state. By design or by contingency, though, I cannot presently say.
At least some of Bakker's response to this seems relatively straightforward - he isn't dead. That Ajokli can't find him, and that he isn't dead, does not necessarily lead anywhere clear yet.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Wilshire

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« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 02:11:09 pm »
...
All that being said, I'm still very skeptical that the entire sum of what Kellhus hoped to achieve with his deal with Ajokli was to be immune to the Inverse Fire. While that's certainly a big benefit if that is indeed the reason for his immunity
...
This is, I think, full of a totally separate set of assumptions than my above post.
Here we pretty much assume that Kellhus goal was to remain in Earwa and defeat the Consult. In that case, assuring he remained immune to the effects of the IF would be paramount. If striking a deal with Ajokli was the only way to accomplish that, it might have been worth the risk. The alternative would be risking himself against the IF, and given the history of the thing, probably not a good idea.

In this case though - Kellhus for Earwa - I do doubt that was his only use for Ajokli.

No, I also think that he knew that he couldn't beat 5 other Dûnyain, especially not on their own turf, as the horde of skin-spy Chorae holders prove.  He needed Ajokli's power there, because even the meta-Gnosis wouldn't have gotten it done.

That's what I think as well. I think he needed Ajokli for the ass-kicking because as you say he was overmatched, which is why I think the fact that said ass-kicking was aborted by Kel's appearance means that Kellhus fucked up.

Yeah, something along these lines. Kellhus is powerful, but not infinitely so. He needed help in the Golden Room, and I suspect Ajokli was supposed to be his ace-in-the-hole. Unfortunately for Kellhus, things didn't go exactly as planned.

One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

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« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2018, 02:17:04 pm »
I had not considered this. That Kellhus' goal for Ajokli, specifically, was to remove him from the outside, which he planned to do by materializing him in Earwa, which unfortunately required him to be possessed.
That does re-frame his actions a bit. Maybe then his whole goal was to switch places with Ajokli, like the heads, except that he'd now be in the Outside (descending as a hunger) and Ajokli playing Apocalypse with his Four Horseman in Earwa.
I'd still say that his returning to Earwa just in time to get salted was not part of that plan.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can fully buy that, because if Kellhus plan was to switch places, then how does he plan to deal with Ajokli in Eärwa?  As powerful as Kellhus is, he is literally nothing to manifested Ajokli.  So, then perhaps we need to consider that Kellhus planned to exit Eärwa all along, only via something like the Diamos, rather than death.

In this case then, perhaps his idea was to then strangle out Ajokli via the Outside.  As the new "Prince of Hell" he could, possibly, re-frame it to allow Ajokli less power?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2018, 02:17:19 pm »
Just some stray observations below, not sure what to make of them just yet:

Pg. 409 - 410
"And so life convulsed and life was expelled from the socket, drawn sheeted in blood from the suffocating real, the very muck of amniotic origin, and held exposed to the scrutiny of the cold Void, the hospice of prayer ... So that some essence might alight ... Some breath be drawn and screamed."

I think this alluding to souls entering the body at birth, specifically.
Mimara saw her unborn children as uber-holy before birth, so two thoughts:
The unborn, unsouled, child is absolutely holy as it has absolute ignorance prior to having a soul, and is then given a soul upon birth (by Yatwer or whatever).
Or, same idea, but the soul enters just before the live birth.

Pg. 415
"Light. Cold. Terror ... Breath. A convulsive wail of arrival ... Lost in the deluge of those departing."

The No-God has not yet resumed; a soul has entered the body of Akka and Mimara's son and it has been born.

Pg. 421 - 425
Unambiguous confirmation of the birth of the son. At this point, Kellhus has been fully subsumed by Ajokli ("[This] Is my place.")

On Page 422 we learn that there is a twin, and we know in hindsight that it will not live.

On Page 423, Malowebi spots Kelmomas threading his way towards Kellhus. On Page 426, we learn that the twin is a stillbirth. Now, I think it's safe to assume the scene in the Ark transpired quickly, with Kellhus being salted and Kelmomas tossed into the Ark, with the resumption beginning quickly enough to prevent the twin from receiving a soul. On Page 425, the Sranc "[crash] into impossible silence", which I believe indicates the rebirth of the No-God, and the stillbirth occurs after that.
Great catch.

Let's say Bakker was being cute with the "Kellhus is no baby" answer, I still don't see how Akka's son can possess Kellhus' soul as the body obtained its own soul prior to Kellhus being completely possessed by Ajokli, and especially if it really was Kellhus ('s soul) who uttered "K-Kel? How di-" (Pg. 443).

Then there's the line "What could not be grasped could not be broken" (Pg. 423) which appears after Ajokli/Kellhus declares "I am the Absolute", juxtaposed with Kellhus being salted after literally being grasped by a skin-spy holding a chorae.
Since I think the whole theory ridiculous and Bakker's comment uncharacteristically clear, I've no comment for it lol. Thanks for sussing out the timeline though, very helpful.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Wilshire

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« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2018, 02:20:54 pm »
I had not considered this. That Kellhus' goal for Ajokli, specifically, was to remove him from the outside, which he planned to do by materializing him in Earwa, which unfortunately required him to be possessed.
That does re-frame his actions a bit. Maybe then his whole goal was to switch places with Ajokli, like the heads, except that he'd now be in the Outside (descending as a hunger) and Ajokli playing Apocalypse with his Four Horseman in Earwa.
I'd still say that his returning to Earwa just in time to get salted was not part of that plan.

Yeah, I'm not sure I can fully buy that, because if Kellhus plan was to switch places, then how does he plan to deal with Ajokli in Eärwa?  As powerful as Kellhus is, he is literally nothing to manifested Ajokli.  So, then perhaps we need to consider that Kellhus planned to exit Eärwa all along, only via something like the Diamos, rather than death.

In this case then, perhaps his idea was to then strangle out Ajokli via the Outside.  As the new "Prince of Hell" he could, possibly, re-frame it to allow Ajokli less power?

The whole of what we assume to be Kellhus' plan is changed for this to make sense. Rather than trying to save humanity or really do anything with Earwa, we need to assume that his goal was to get to the outside, and perhaps his hope was actually to seal Ajokli into the World, via the sarcophagus or by the eventual success of the Consult sealing the world.

One of the other conditions of possibility.