(TUC Spoilers) Thoughts on TUC

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Redeagl

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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 04:50:11 pm »
Zeum still has all its sorcerers bar Malowebi. And Kellhus himself was impressed by the power and potential of the Iswazi.

Also, the EG states that the Swayal Compact outnumbers the Mandate two to one, yet there don't seem to be that many Nuns actually accompanying the Great Ordeal. Many of the battle scenes don't mention them at all, or only include a handful, far fewer than the number of Schoolmen described. The witches that do appear seem to be mostly older women who had already been illegally practising sorcery before the Manumission. I strongly suspect that there are a lot of half-trained witches back in Orovelai who did not accompany the Great Ordeal.

So I don't think humanity is quite so bereft of sorcerous might as some of you fear.
It's worth mentioning that the Zeumi sorcerers are all Anagogic.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 07:06:17 pm »
Great post, Ciogli.

Yeah... not a lot going for Earwa's humanity right now. As far as I recall, the omnipresent war POVs in TUC describe Kellhus' Ordeal the largest army assembled, ever, by almost double if I recall correctly.

Plus Kellhus' was the only empire in Earwa's history that institutionalized Witches.


The size of the Ordeal never made sense to me because if you go back to PON the First Holy War was the same size, around 300k. The Ordeal definitely had many more sorcerors however. That is the biggest problem is the death of so many magic users. The cream of the Three Seas military is dead but there are still enough people in Zeum and the Three Seas to assemble big armies.
Yeah I think Bakker screwed up with how many are left by the time they get to Golgotterath. It was only reduced to 1/4th its size? Realistically, the host would probably be reduced that much just from an unopposed march of that size, much less the battlefield attrition suffered, autocannibalism, and the god damn nuke. He did a better job with the Holy War.

Likaro

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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2017, 07:37:28 pm »
They had around 300k when they left and around 100k at the battle of Golgotterath. I would have liked it more if he left with like 500 k and got there with 100 k but whatever.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2017, 08:27:32 pm »
I thought the initial Ordeal was around half a million men?

Personally before this book I figured we were down to 1/10th or even 1/20th of the original host (but still most of the schoolmen, which is what matters)

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« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 03:07:59 pm »
Zeum still has all its sorcerers bar Malowebi. And Kellhus himself was impressed by the power and potential of the Iswazi.

Also, the EG states that the Swayal Compact outnumbers the Mandate two to one, yet there don't seem to be that many Nuns actually accompanying the Great Ordeal. Many of the battle scenes don't mention them at all, or only include a handful, far fewer than the number of Schoolmen described. The witches that do appear seem to be mostly older women who had already been illegally practising sorcery before the Manumission. I strongly suspect that there are a lot of half-trained witches back in Orovelai who did not accompany the Great Ordeal.

So I don't think humanity is quite so bereft of sorcerous might as some of you fear.

Despite Bakker's cagey responses on the AMA (I've yet to really dig into the Q&A thread here), it seems like there's a surviving portion of the Ordeal.

It's worth mentioning that the Zeumi sorcerers are all Anagogic.

That's the implication but we don't really know much about the Mbimayu. As per Malowebi in TGO, the way the Mbimayu inutteral works seemed anomalous as did their use of fetishes. Also, Zeum, like the Fanim, doesn't separate faith and sorcery, which is... curious, to say the least.

Yeah I think Bakker screwed up with how many are left by the time they get to Golgotterath. It was only reduced to 1/4th its size? Realistically, the host would probably be reduced that much just from an unopposed march of that size, much less the battlefield attrition suffered, autocannibalism, and the god damn nuke. He did a better job with the Holy War.

I'd have to check but while the whole Ordeal - minus the congregation where Sorweel finds Zsoronga - participated in eating the Scalded, I think that the text explicitly says that only ten thousand contributed to the preceding Night of Bacchanal and the slaughter of the Judges.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2019, 05:49:58 pm »
Ciogli, great post.

Definitely a lot ot ponder here, and as I read through these old TUC posts, I'm notice a theme. Most people realizing that while Esmenet might not have been the most interesting character, she did end up having a ridiuclously significant impact on the story. Though this is mainly through the birth of children, its still significant.

I'm not sure if this was intentional by Bakker or not, but it seems almost every important woman in the story had an important, world-altering, chosen one child. The only one that does not is Serwa, who I guess was supposed to be too busy being a badass Grandmaster Mage-Monk to be bothered... But with this thought in mind, I wonder if she, too, had a special child with a greater role to play in later books.

Regarding the rest of your post, its difficult to ferret out a single reason why people disliked the novel or the series. As time has passed, I've seen a lot of different reasons, not all of which can be explained as people expecting an ending they didn't get. Some, maybe, but not all.

Definitely though, a concluding story would be most welcome, seeing as how we ended up with more loose ends at the end of TUC/TAE than one might be prone to expect. I hope some day we get that story.
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Rots

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« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2019, 02:25:51 pm »

Definitely though, a concluding story would be most welcome, seeing as how we ended up with more loose ends at the end of TUC/TAE than one might be prone to expect. I hope some day we get that story.

ehhh...The longer i am away the more im glad im gone from the books. Still the best fantasy books ive read this century and maybe ever but...Bakker really just annoyed the shit out of me w/his intentional ambiguities.

Has he ever explained the, iirc, the panties coming off comment regarding TUC? Has he ever come back to what we all supposedly missed in the Golden Room scene?

Hes so insistent on being inscrutable and then claiming that our awareness of said inscrutability is actually showing us how well we understand him that it borders on open trolling. Imo.

My memory is hazy but decades ago in Dragon magazine there was a cartoon w/a dragon on top of a destroyed tower/castle with destruction all around w/the caption: Sometimes the Dragon Wins.

Thats basically my hope for these books - The dragon (consult) wins and the world is closed. I mean if there is another series i will find it basically wildly implausible if not outright fucking stupid if humanity can defeat the mutilated/shea/consult/hordes of sranc.

There are 8 figure sranc aimed straight at TTS and then Zeum. Zerg the shit out of everyone, eat them/kill them, the end. Consult rules forever. If there is some bullshit Kellhus in the Outside Deus Ex Machina move still to be played id prefer RSB just keep it to himself.

Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2019, 12:40:21 pm »
To succinctly answer all your questions: No. There has been no further clarification. Bakker went radio silent for over year, this month was actually his first TPB in a year, and its obviously been longer since he's said anything about the books.

FWIW, I hope he doesn't do any more online Q&A/AMA/etc. things, for the sake of his fans. Because, yes, his interactions tend towards outright trolling, even if unintentional (which in many cases I doubt). When talking about the books, he is always obfuscating, usually disingenuous, and often lies outright. For me personally its entertaining, but I think he drives people away from the books, which is ultimately bad for the series.

So its probably for the best that he sticks to writing.
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2019, 01:10:48 pm »
If there is some bullshit Kellhus in the Outside Deus Ex Machina move still to be played id prefer RSB just keep it to himself.

Well, I don't know that Kellhus still having an impact would be deus ex machina at this point, but I too would be a bit disappointed if that was the "key."

I'd much rather, personally, if it is/was/will be Mimara who is the real key to undoing the No-God.  But no, I don't think the "solution" is that they somehow actually kill all the Sranc.  I'd think the "answer" is to undo the No-God (in my mind, by Mimara, using the Eye and answering it's "questions") then surviving well enough after that.


On the usual note, I don't know that Bakker ever, really, outright lied.  He just makes vague statements that seem to be saying something, but really aren't actually clear in reality.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2019, 02:01:42 pm »
Lol, well the example I cite is an old one, but he said Cnaiur's story arc was finished. Which, clearly, no. Most of the things people bring up more recently are probably misinterpretation, but when you set out to be deceiving its hard to call it something else.

I agree that Humanity's  "win condition" is not killing all the sranc, the consult, nor getting rid of the gods and their hells. Given the whole repeating history bit, the win would probably be the undoing of the No God, just like last time. As with the first apocalypse, billions of sranc didn't seem to help much after the big yoke controlling them all was destroyed - I don't see any reason for why that wouldn't work a second time.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 02:03:28 pm by Wilshire »
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2019, 02:19:36 pm »
Lol, well the example I cite is an old one, but he said Cnaiur's story arc was finished. Which, clearly, no. Most of the things people bring up more recently are probably misinterpretation, but when you set out to be deceiving its hard to call it something else.

Well, indeed, in that case, what else could he do that would not spoil the coming end of the books though?  If he refuses to answer, we'd already suspect that there is more to it.  If he says yes, then it's already spoiler and if he says no, then he lied.  It's no win for him and punishes him for engaging with the community.

I agree that Humanity's  "win condition" is not killing all the sranc, the consult, nor getting rid of the gods and their hells. Given the whole repeating history bit, the win would probably be the undoing of the No God, just like last time. As with the first apocalypse, billions of sranc didn't seem to help much after the big yoke controlling them all was destroyed - I don't see any reason for why that wouldn't work a second time.

I'd personally think that the "best" answer is to disenchant/undo/deactivate the No-God, via Mimara, then actually capture the Sarcophagus and either destroy it, or put it somewhere that it can't be gotten to again.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2019, 02:35:50 pm »
That's what spoiler tags are for, besides the classic Glomar response (or bakker's own RAFO).
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2019, 03:47:57 pm »
That's what spoiler tags are for, besides the classic Glomar response (or bakker's own RAFO).

I still think it's a losing proposition in either case, spoiler tag or not.

I guess I am just weird.  To me, it seems nearly akin to being upset with your parents for "lying" to you as a kid, that Santa Claus exists.  I mean, yeah, but it's not just "that simple" to me.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2019, 09:55:22 pm »
That's what spoiler tags are for, besides the classic Glomar response (or bakker's own RAFO).

I still think it's a losing proposition in either case, spoiler tag or not.

I guess I am just weird.  To me, it seems nearly akin to being upset with your parents for "lying" to you as a kid, that Santa Claus exists.  I mean, yeah, but it's not just "that simple" to me.

I agree - I don't want the series spoiled for me. So I support him in not providing "good" answers for the future. That said, anything he thinks we should've gotten should get an answer when we don't - not cryptic you missed something in some scene. But that's not too bad as I don't want the author to explain everything to me, but if he genuinely wants us to get some things, pick up on significance, then just spill it.
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2019, 10:07:25 pm »
I agree - I don't want the series spoiled for me. So I support him in not providing "good" answers for the future. That said, anything he thinks we should've gotten should get an answer when we don't - not cryptic you missed something in some scene. But that's not too bad as I don't want the author to explain everything to me, but if he genuinely wants us to get some things, pick up on significance, then just spill it.

I do agree.  I think some things likely should be less opaque, ideally.  But, not necessarily so much so that we have nothing to think about or discuss.  If there were, hypothetically, no ambiguity, there would be nothing to really talk about.

In other words, if everything was just a matter of facts, once we had the facts, we'd be "done."  But it's not a matter of facts, to me, it's a matter of interpretation.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira