[TUC] The Gods and Their Agency

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Simas Polchias

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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2017, 04:05:03 pm »
- How the Gods perceive historical events?

Just saw this video and deemed it a good, though not perfect visualization. Gods percieve historical events all at once -- and the main layer of percieving is the cause-and-effect changes after divine intervention and/or mortal sorcery hacking.
I.e. if gods would change blood's colour in the middle intro from red to green, all subsequent intros will instantly become with green blood, while still being with red. And this is the world of gods, so to speak. It's not the plot or the actors of the film they see, but red2greed swaps -- a complete image of all possible interruptions in all possible historic events. Like the war of edits, lol, on the popular wiki-site.
Maybe, they have something commond with mortals here? Like people have TDTCB, The Hundred don't know about their initial solitarity and thus cannot to see/to intervene before dissolution or to know about consolidation. Maybe it's even a cycle with solitary god just wishing himself into existence from the primordial pool of lesser godling and decaying into it. This perfectly limits The Hundred power, nor they are capable of creating the whole World / Outside system, nor they are fit for breaking or reforming it. They are just bound around the top of it's food chain.

So, basically, perception of gods is akin to nonmen erraticism, but on a larger-than-whale-moms metaphysical scale.
Being broken things, they are especially reduced by perfection (you can't say all-seing without saying all).

Monkhound

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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2017, 04:34:52 pm »
So, basically, perception of gods is akin to nonmen erraticism, but on a larger-than-whale-moms metaphysical scale.
Being broken things, they are especially reduced by perfection (you can't say all-seing without saying all).

I was going to draw the parallel with the Four Revelations appendix based on Merch's first reply. It's an interesting idea.
Cuts and cuts and cuts...

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2019, 06:49:19 pm »
This thread has me thinking about topoi.

A summoned Ciphrang can see Golgotterath.
A Ciphrang in a deep enough topos seems to function quite similarly to being in the actual outside.
Topoi are supposed to be the closest points "Inside" to the "Outside"

Its strange, then, that the Gods have the most trouble seeing Golgotterath, which is as close to the Outside as you can get while still being Inside. This makes me wonder if topoi obscure the Gods vision for some reason. The deeper the topos, the more obscure, until eventually the Gods cannot perceptive it at all.

This also brings about Anarcane ground, where The God dreams most lucidly. Something like a reverse Topos, and maybe equally as obfuscating to The Gods.

Maybe part of the No-Gods functionality is to turn the world into a single Topos. This would create an Inside that function very similarly to the Outside, where one's mundane subjective thoughts and feelings can effect the otherwise objective world, while having the bonus effect of making the entire world invisible to the Gods.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2019, 09:29:31 pm »
There is a bit of confusion in the community about Outside agencies not seeing the Arc or Golgotterath. Outside agencies see the physical forms of those things fine, what they don't see is their metaphysical significance to the living. There is no meaning there for the Gods aside from just another place in the Inside (even if it is the strongest topos, there is almost no souls there, and the Gods want souls), while for the characters there is loads of importance there.

So the Gods and Ciphrang can get into and navigate the Arc fine, assuming they have enough "juice" for such an undertaking, they just don't see a reason to do so. It's beyond their ken to see any metaphysical threat there.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 09:32:03 pm by SmilerLoki »

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2019, 12:30:07 pm »
I don't think the distinction is important to what I was saying. The point is that within boundaries of the Topos, the Gods are blind to meaning. It leads me to believe that souls within topoi are difficult to see, the deeper the topos the harder they are to see/comprehend/etc. But regardless, part of the confusion may be how we use the word "see" to be not always literal - sometimes used in place of a more complex description like "sensing  metaphysical significance".

Back to the topic, another possible explanation I find less interesting, which is that the gods have trouble "Seeing"/"sensing" through rock. I dislike the idea, but Golgotterath is probably one of the physically deepest places in Earwa (lets ignore the fact that they are in the horn above ground), next to our other big topoi like Cil' Aujas (sp) and The Holy Deep.

The potential effect of topos interacting with gods is more interesting than deep caverns - to me. This allows for further speculation an topos not located underground (Mengedda) and the weirdness of Anarcane ground (and why the NG avoided it).

Topoi and Anarcane Ground seem like opposite ends of a function. If Erwa's existence is somehow observed or described as a wave function, Anarcane would be a peak, Topos a valley, and the rest being some continuum of objective/subjective space. The Gods would see "all of time" in the middile section, with the peaks/troughs being outside the band of their visibility. TNG creates a moving 'blind spot'.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2019, 09:13:10 pm »
I don't think the distinction is important to what I was saying. The point is that within boundaries of the Topos, the Gods are blind to meaning. It leads me to believe that souls within topoi are difficult to see, the deeper the topos the harder they are to see/comprehend/etc. But regardless, part of the confusion may be how we use the word "see" to be not always literal - sometimes used in place of a more complex description like "sensing  metaphysical significance".
I think it's really important exactly for what you're proposing. The Gods can navigate topoi fine, since it's the closest to the Outside in the Inside by definition, as you say. So them having trouble with the Arc is exactly them not understanding the significance of the Consult and its work. For them, Golgotterath is just a mostly deserted topos, and thus of no particular interest.

Now, anarcane ground is another matter entirely, and it might be entirely possible that not only sorcery, but also divine power is impotent there. Which would also explain why the No-God was avoiding anarcane ground during the First Apocalypse (which lead to the survival of Atrithau).

Wilshire

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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2019, 12:46:50 pm »
But something specific we always get with topoi is blindness, especially to the gods. That's a thematic element that I think dismissing outright is a mistake. If a topos is supposed to be the closest to the outside, I'd expect the Gods to interact most heavily there. What we get is something much different. Godless vacuums where the outside, and inside subjective reality, become material and objective. Yet we see no gods in Meggeca, we see the bizarre Wight in the Mountain (an entity not fully in the outside for some reason), the physical Eye in the Heart, and the Nonmen hiding from Gods.

Plenty of opportunities in the story for Gods be reach out, especially in places to attuned to the outside. That they never do is very telling, despite ample room in the plot.
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H

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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2019, 06:08:04 pm »
Wait, what is the evidence that topoi are not visible by the gods and/or Outside entities?

Is it because of what Kellhus tells us about the 100 not being able to view the inside of The Ark?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2019, 01:44:38 am »
@Wilshire

Yes, I share H's confusion. There is no evidence that the Gods are blind in topoi. The fact that specifically the Gods don't reach out more there is not a proof of anything, since other Outside agencies and phenomena are present. Just of a lesser caliber.

And Ciphrang do navigate the Arc fine, as evidenced by an horde of them being unleashed upon it. With one of them even getting a POV segment, which confirms that Ciphrang are, in fact, more free there, not less.

I'm not sure where your interpretation comes from.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 01:49:24 am by SmilerLoki »

H

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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 12:08:38 pm »
The fact that specifically the Gods don't reach out more there is not a proof of anything, since other Outside agencies and phenomena are present. Just of a lesser caliber.

And Ciphrang do navigate the Arc fine, as evidenced by an horde of them being unleashed upon it. With one of them even getting a POV segment, which confirms that Ciphrang are, in fact, more free there, not less.

Well, it could be the case that topoi are where the world is closer to the Outside, but not necessarily where the Outside is closer to the world.  In other words, where the world "shifts" toward the Outside, but the Outside does not shirt "inward" toward the world.

I think it is logical to imagine this as a reciprocal process, but that doesn't mean it actually would be.  So, a topoi might put the Wright closer to Hell, but it wouldn't necessarily put Ajokli closer to the Ark.  There could also be a sort of question of "intentionality" there, because the "Outside forces" in a topoi do not seem to show intentionality (as far as I remember), so it could also be that even a think barrier is still a barrier to that.

But again, that is an aside really, as I still just don't quite see the evidence of blindness, per se.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 12:27:38 pm »
Blindness as a theme in topoi, not gods specifically. Both the Holy Deep and Cil' Aujas , with the later that whole thing with the Eye in the heart.

As for Ciphrang, firstly they aren't Gods. But besides, none of them actually go into the Ark, they are rained down onto the top of the stairs, and IIRC the only one that makes it to the Ark is the one that eats Iyokus' soul who then discorporates before entering the ark itself.
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H

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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 01:01:03 pm »
Blindness as a theme in topoi, not gods specifically. Both the Holy Deep and Cil' Aujas , with the later that whole thing with the Eye in the heart.

But the Holy Deep and the bottom of Cil' Aujas are not blind spots because they are topoi, they are blind spots because they are deep in the earth.  Now, Cil' Aujus does happen to also be a topoi, but the Mere, that is, the Holy Deep is not a topos, at least not as far as I can remember.

That the topos of the Ark is not visable is not really related to it being a topos, rather, it's related to the Ark not being "of this world" that is, of Earwa.  At least, far as I understand it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 01:32:57 pm »
Well, it could be the case that topoi are where the world is closer to the Outside, but not necessarily where the Outside is closer to the world.  In other words, where the world "shifts" toward the Outside, but the Outside does not shirt "inward" toward the world.
Atemporal nature of the Outside presupposes its spatial unity (there is no distance, since time invested into covering it does not matter, so even the division between the Gods is arbitrary), so being "closer to the Outside" is being closer to that unity, or the same "intentional space", yes. And for something to touch you, you should be able to touch it, you can't have it both ways.

@Wilshire

Yes, the Holy Deep is not a topos, and while the Nonmen would like it to be invisible to the Gods, they fail spectacularly in such endeavors, at least so far.

Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 02:18:19 pm »
Wait what, the holy deep isnt a topos?
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 03:34:31 pm »
Wait what, the holy deep isnt a topos?
Never referred to as such as far as I remember.