So...where do we go from here...? (Post TUC questions and thoughts)

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Kellais

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« on: July 30, 2017, 03:51:51 pm »
Finished TUC today.

I will try to write down my thoughts later (and after browsing the TUC subforum, i see that i am at least not alone in being...underwhelmed) although i'm still not sure if i want to post it here. Not sure if a Bakker fan forum is the right place  ;)

Now, to the thread at hand. Right after reading the last sentence of the book my mind was instantly going "Ok...what now?!" . Will we see the third series? Or is this it for Earwa?
If we will see the series that shall not be named, what will it tell? Will it continue immediately after the end of TUC? Or will we get another years long jump into the future?

There surely are some stories to tell, obviously. I mean 2nd Apocalypse, yo! So i guess there is no shortage of stuff to write about.
I do wonder though...is it a good idea? I really think it is worth pondering if it isn't better to just....leave it there, so to speak.

Not much thought, i know. Just lots of (probably uninteresting) questions  ;D

Maybe i will come back later with more actual thought (and/or answers to my own questions).

But i had to get that out of my head...and where better to put it then here?!!

Oh and...bring the Quorum back, damn it!!!!  :P :P ;D ;)
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Spooky

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« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 04:08:33 pm »
Quote
Finished TUC today.

I will try to write down my thoughts later (and after browsing the TUC subforum, i see that i am at least not alone in being...underwhelmed) although i'm still not sure if i want to post it here. Not sure if a Bakker fan forum is the right place  ;)

You are not alone oh brother of the slog. Even here there can be found doubt.

Though Denile is a wide river and you, brave soul, have ventured to its very mouth. 

Welcome.

codebread

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« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 10:25:32 pm »
You should read the Author Q&A thread. There are answers to a couple of your questions.

littlegrice

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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 01:01:37 am »
So, first time posting, so bare with me and any potential blunders.

Thoughts upon completion:
  1.  Kellhus is far too clever to be gone.  Serwa said once that he too is over-matched (or overpowered...don't remember), but unlike everyone else, he simply takes the battle deeper.  I think this is significant.  "I'm Damned?  Got it.  I'll just master the Daimos, and go to the place everyone seems to fear so much.  Get a lay of the land.  Talk to the Gods directly.  Sure, they can't SEE the No-God, but a few of them seem to understand there is SOMETHING they can't see.  Aha!  Ajokli want to talk deals?  Well, he's a tricky bastard, so he's gonna screw me over in the end, and I'm going up against at least ONE Dunyain, so I have to figure out SOMETHING..."  What did he come up with?  Dunno, really, but when we find out it's gonna be awesome, I think.  I remember reading somewhere that Bakker would ponder over a single conversation involving Kellhus for weeks sometimes, then finally hit on the cleverest thing possible, and cackle to himsilf, "Oh, that clever BASTARD!"  And he has had DECADES to figure out this one.  We will be seeing Kellhus again, is some way, shape or form.  That leads right into
  2.  Cnair becoming, or at least being possessed by the Prince of Hate was pretty sweet, though it will complicate Kellhus' master plan, perhaps even ruin it.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but Cnair is the only person thus far in the series to surprise Kellhus, right?  So if Ajokli took him, or he ascended to become Ajokli, there is a confrontation coming that old K-man maybe ain't ready for.

Survivors of the Ordeal
  1.  Achamian, Esmenet, Mimara, and baby.  Achamian, after receiving a mouthful of dead person ash, just hauls ass and doesn't look back.
  2.  Kayutas and Serwa.  Either with Achamian(I don't think so, but possible), the Mandate Grand Master, or (my crazy theory) they hide in Golgotterath while she regains her strength for the Meta-Gnostic.  Hiding where no one could possibly be?  Sounds pretty fuckin Dunyain to me.

Predictions for the No-God
  1.  The Carapace having no Chorae will be the eventual end of the No-God.  Having thousands upon thousands of Chorae inside the Whirlwind is pretty intimidating, but no protection on the Carapace itself is a big mistake.  I get it, though.  Kellhus was supposed to be the No-God, so they had to go, but they need to fix it now.  Or it is a future plot point, which is MY point.  Hehe...see what I did there? ;D
  2.  Mimara's Chorae inversion thing will come up again, maybe as she stalks the halls of Golgotterath itself to cleanse it for good.  That last part is wishful thinking, but the first part is a certainty.  Or maybe she rediscovers the Aporos.  That would be cool.  My original thought was that only the Aporos had any hope of stopping Kellhus when he eventually turned on everyone, but that went a bit pear-shaped.
  3.  Some combination of the survivors of the Ordeal I listed above (maybe all?) will serve as the leaders of what's left of civilization in its undoubtedly pathetic attempt to stave of the Second Apocalypse.  Esmenet has forces mustered in some random city (I don't remember where) which will be wiped out in the second major defeat at the hands of the No-God, forcing them to seek shelter in the unforgiving arms of High Holy Zeum.  But to get there, they're gonna have to trespass on the ground owned by Moenghus and his Scylvendi.  That should be fun.  Moenghus and Serwa are going to have a Coming-to-Kellhus moment.  Probably not gonna be sweet.

Hopes for the No-God.  (as in probably not, but here's hoping!)
  1.  The Nonmen are not done.  They still have a trick or two yet to play.
  2.  Crab hand ends up with Achamian and/or Serwa, and they teach him the Gnosis.  He's Dunyain, but not really.  I mean, he has only the most basic of his training, but all that potential.  A mold-able piece of clay with the ability to still be human (feelings and such), but also capable of the Meta-Gnostic bad-assery that is grandfather wielded.  This is a leftover hope that I had held onto from a rehabilitated Kelmomas, and what he could have been.  Can you imagine a Dunyain with TWO minds, assisting each other in Meta-Gnostic Cants?  Kellhus times 2?  It makes me giggle with terror.
  3.  Meppa assisting the survivors.  Assuming he is still alive, which it seemed like he was, who knows what Kellhus said/did to him, so he would be an ultra wild card.  Finding out more about the Water and why the Consult wanted it wiped out so badly would be awfully nice, too.
  4.  Kellhus' talk with Seswatha in the Thousand Fold Thought FINALLY comes to light.  I want to know what they talked about SOOO BAD, and if that is what lead to the changes in Achamian's Dreams.  And, since I am here, wishing upon the Nail of Heaven, how about we see Seswatha awaken fully within Achamian.  The Skin-spy said Chigra burned bright in him, after all.  Maybe it was Seswatha's plan all along...a break glass in case of Second Apocalypse situation.  He would be both Achamian, but also Seswatha.
  5.  AND, since I mentioned the Nail of Heaven, how about we find out what's up with that thing, huh?!  A piece of the Arc?  An enemy of the Arc, responsible for the Arc plummeting to Earwa?  R Scott Bakker's imperial visage itself, scowling down upon all of Earwa?

And finally, a question:  Anybody care to explain the haloes about Kellhus' hands and head?

Whew!  Thanks in advance for reading and (maybe) answering, and even (POSSIBLY) arguing.
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

Madness

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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 01:16:55 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, littlegrice :).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 08:02:29 pm »
Kellais, there are several 'first impression' threads, which why this one isn't getting much response. I'd suggest a narrower focus, or checking them out :) .

As Spooky notes, this is of course a great place for doubts, and always has been. Nothings happening here if everyone agrees and we all go home. In fact, it wouldn't be here at all were it so simple we all understood and agreed.

littlegrice, welcome to the forum and great initial post, I look forward to reading many more :) .

One of the other conditions of possibility.

Madness

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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 12:01:55 pm »
Kellais, there are several 'first impression' threads, which why this one isn't getting much response. I'd suggest a narrower focus, or checking them out :) .

Yeah, as noted, Wilshire, my bad. Let's say - and I'll update the TUC Spoiler Policy thread in a timely manner (a page and a half of topics later) - that a week from today we can drop the [TUC Spoiler] tags and start making topics with TUC content in General Earwa.

As Spooky notes, this is of course a great place for doubts, and always has been. Nothings happening here if everyone agrees and we all go home. In fact, it wouldn't be here at all were it so simple we all understood and agreed.

Yeah...

It's great :).
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Hiro

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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 12:42:38 pm »
Hi littlegrice!

Impressive first post.


Predictions for the No-God
[...]
  3.  Some combination of the survivors of the Ordeal I listed above (maybe all?) will serve as the leaders of what's left of civilization in its undoubtedly pathetic attempt to stave of the Second Apocalypse.  Esmenet has forces mustered in some random city (I don't remember where) which will be wiped out in the second major defeat at the hands of the No-God, forcing them to seek shelter in the unforgiving arms of High Holy Zeum.  But to get there, they're gonna have to trespass on the ground owned by Moenghus and his Scylvendi.  That should be fun.  Moenghus and Serwa are going to have a Coming-to-Kellhus moment.  Probably not gonna be sweet.


I've been thinking about how any army could possibly offer any meaningful resistance against the No-God and his Sranc-horde. RSB mentioned that we have not seen the last of the Nonmen, so there are other powers at play.

Still, I was thinking about geography. To battle the Horde on any field is to invite disaster. As we have seen in TGO and elsewhere in smaller scale, if one is able to divide the Horde in manageable chunks through geography, then it might be possible to fight a running battle. Guerilla warfare, instead of open warfare. This should protect against the Whirlwind as well.

A well-timed Momasian earthquake or flooding would be very helpful as well, so get on it Thousand Temples.

Meanwhile, evacuate all souls that cannot take part in the battle.

All the while, one needs a more permanent solution. The Dunsult themselves, the Ark, the Carapace, they need to be wrecked somehow as well.

Mystery denotes darkness

Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 07:00:20 pm »
Hiro, im of the opinion that a desert, a big mountain range, and  a fortress in the only passable region will have to suffice.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2017, 08:02:30 pm »
I just finished this so I want to gloat about being right about Kelmomas/Samarmas being the real Harbinger and Kellhus being a red herring.

Very mixed feelings about this book. I enjoyed it, but there were some anticlimaxes. Some were understandable. I mean, the Consult were clearly meant to be a pathetic anti-climax. Others...though he annoyed me in the beginning, I came to really like Sorweel and his death seems to make his whole arc rather meandering and pointless. Hell, I even liked him and Serwa together. Sadly, that's been the closest thing to a healthy romantic relationship in the entire series. Naturally, it was also among the shortest.

I fear that he's simply killed off so many interesting characters it will be hard to get invested in the next series, the adventures of Meppa, Kellhus' Nameless Grandson, and some kids/cousins/whatever of all the dead characters. It's gonna need some work.

Madness

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 10:24:25 pm »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
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Kellais

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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 05:16:01 pm »
Wil & Madness - yes, i guess i should have waited a few more days...the thread with Scott answering so many questions kind of makes my thread here more or less redundant ^^

Also, maybe i should have browsed a bit more, i admit. Although on first glance i didn't see a dedicated thread to musings for details explicitly after TUC.

Anyway... i guess we can close this thread (or not, some interesting points are being discussed that had nothing to do with my relatively light opening post)
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 05:18:33 pm »
I just finished this so I want to gloat about being right about Kelmomas/Samarmas being the real Harbinger and Kellhus being a red herring.

*Fist Bump*  Gloat away, my brother.

Woden

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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 07:25:47 pm »
Lol. Kellhus is more a white whale than a red herring. Or a red herring of titanic dimensions, the mother of all red herrings.
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solipsisticurge

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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2017, 08:05:28 pm »
I just finished this so I want to gloat about being right about Kelmomas/Samarmas being the real Harbinger and Kellhus being a red herring.

Very mixed feelings about this book. I enjoyed it, but there were some anticlimaxes. Some were understandable. I mean, the Consult were clearly meant to be a pathetic anti-climax. Others...though he annoyed me in the beginning, I came to really like Sorweel and his death seems to make his whole arc rather meandering and pointless. Hell, I even liked him and Serwa together. Sadly, that's been the closest thing to a healthy romantic relationship in the entire series. Naturally, it was also among the shortest.

I fear that he's simply killed off so many interesting characters it will be hard to get invested in the next series, the adventures of Meppa, Kellhus' Nameless Grandson, and some kids/cousins/whatever of all the dead characters. It's gonna need some work.


I fear that he's simply killed off so many interesting characters it will be hard to get invested in the next series, the adventures of Meppa, Kellhus' Nameless Grandson, and some kids/cousins/whatever of all the dead characters. It's gonna need some work.

You are forgetting the doubtless main  character of TNG, the destroyer of the No-God and salvation of mankind, the One Who Comes Before, the Absolute, the God-Among-Us...

...Likaro.

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