[TUC Spoilers] Conditioned ground

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 08:44:40 pm »
Very interesting, thank you, OntaSensitiveCone.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 11:21:55 pm »
A thought regarding why Kellhus went back for Esmi:

He says a couple things to her about why he went back; one is that she is his only darkness, which seems straightforward enough. But there may be more significance to his other claim: "[you are] the only place I can hide."

We know Kellhus has to find a way to hide his soul from Ajokli. My take was that somehow, something about the metaphysics of Earwa allows one to hide one's soul in darkness/oblivion. How those two concepts are related, I'm not completely sure, but I assumed that Kellhus brought Esmenet back to the Great Ordeal because he needed to hide his soul in her shadow.

I think it's just as simple as Kellhus only ever being "I" instead of a place inhabiting a body (as he sees himself when super-dunyaining) is when he's succumbing to appetite, emotion, and instinct with Esmenet.

TwoMinutesToApocalypse

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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 03:27:08 am »
Did he anticipate his posession?
I think it was a gradual thing that he didn't realize was happening.  That being said, I think he knew the risks.  He dabbled with the Daimos.  Kellhus probably thought himself too smart for the classic possession trick.

Did he anticipate his death
The Thousandfold Thought went dark at Golgotterath.  Knowing how much Kellhus can think ahead, he most likely considered it a possibility.  His arrogance probably made him think there was a small chance of that happening.  You know... because Kellhus is so great, right?

Did he anticipate the ressurection of the no-god via his son?
No way.  He was blind to Kelmomas the entire time I think.

Did he anticipate the arrival of mimara and drusas at golgotterah?
Oh yeah.  Kellhus saw that coming since the first trilogy.  He said that Akka would kneel the next time they met. I loved the build up to that part, by the way.

Did he anticipate moenghus reuniting with Cnaiur and assuming control of the horde?
He asked Akka if Cnaiur still lived so I think Kellhus didn't see this one coming.

Did he anticipate Cnaiurs posession?
Solid no. I don't think Kellhus thought that Cnaiur was alive.

Is it possible he knew about Sorweal and wanted kelmonas to interrupt that assasination to set other events in motion?
No again.  I think Kellhus was legit oblivious to Kelmomas and Sorweel the whole time. 

SuJuroit

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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 03:06:06 pm »
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•The Psūkhe is non-cognitive, born of feeling/intuition rather than intellect, and thus feels like the purview of the Darkness; of course, it does not damn its users

Do we know this to be true?  We know it leaves no Mark, but is there any evidence its practitioners aren't damned beyond that?  Chorae not only protect against the Psukhe, but kill its practitioners.

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•Creatures such as Sranc, which are naught but the Darkness, are neither damned nor holy (almost like they find oblivion by default).

Sranc are merely soulless; animate dolls made of meat.  They don't so much find Oblivion as they ARE Oblivion.

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•The erratic who finds oblivion was an erratic. But to be an erratic is to be entirely surrounded by the Darkness, no?

This is interesting.  If true, perhaps the Dolour is the ultimate savior of the Non-Men, the best thing that could ever happen to them.  But it raises questions about the Inverse Fire, which apparently is the tool the Consult used to recruit erratic Non-Men in the first place; they seem to see themselves in the Pit, which both helps restore them to lucidity and causes them to believe that finding Oblivion is a fool's errand.  Could the Inverse Fire be wrong sometimes?  Could one see oneself as damned but still find Oblivion?  Why would an erratic Non-Man join the Consult if the Inverse Fire showed him finding Oblivion, or otherwise not suffering damnation?  Does it lie and show everybody in the Pit?  That would seem appropriate to its status as The Goad, but Kellhus claimed it burned true and saw himself descending as Hunger, so who knows.

Walter

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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 06:12:06 pm »
I feel like Damnation is much more fluid than it is made out to be.  I think that Nonman just got lucky about when he died.  He'd normally have been Damned, but a few dozen Ciphrang were busy being trapped in the Inside, Ajokli was in Kellhus, a Topos short circuited the escape route, Resumption was near...take your pick.  I don't think it was a typical outcome, is what I'm trying to say.

SuJuroit

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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 06:30:15 pm »
Quote
I feel like Damnation is much more fluid than it is made out to be.  I think that Nonman just got lucky about when he died.  He'd normally have been Damned, but a few dozen Ciphrang were busy being trapped in the Inside, Ajokli was in Kellhus, a Topos short circuited the escape route, Resumption was near...take your pick.  I don't think it was a typical outcome, is what I'm trying to say.

As if Earwa and the metaphysics of souls isn't brutal enough, now there's an RNG element in the mix!  You happen to die when a couple of Ciphrang are having their coffee break or dropping the Outside equivalent of a deuce and your soul can make a break for Oblivion.  15 minutes earlier or later and it's an ETERNITY of torment.  Harsh, but strangely appropriate for the setting!

Likaro

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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 07:20:03 pm »
When you die in Earwa, your soul is instantly transported to a mini-game of expert mode Frogger.

You have to carefully guide your soul across the dangerous highway of the Outside, while various entities (various Ciphrang, Gods, family members etc.)  try to get you.

Few can make it all the way across to Oblivion.

OntaSensitiveCone

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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 10:31:14 pm »
Quote
•The Psūkhe is non-cognitive, born of feeling/intuition rather than intellect, and thus feels like the purview of the Darkness; of course, it does not damn its users

Do we know this to be true?  We know it leaves no Mark, but is there any evidence its practitioners aren't damned beyond that?  Chorae not only protect against the Psukhe, but kill its practitioners.

I believe one of the glossaries states that the Psūkhe is non-cognitive, and I recall Bakker once confirming in an older interview that the Psūkhe had no truck with meaning and thus leaves no mark; also we have Kellhus's explanation to Moėnghus that it depends on one's ability to feel. So maybe I should say that it feels like a good fit with the Darkness-is-God narrative.

Chorae have no interaction with damnation, only with sorcery---otherwise very few people would be able to carry them. You're completely right that we don't have direct evidence that the Psūkhe doesn't damn its users, but in fairness we have almost none of that kind of evidence for anything (we don't even know that sorcery contributes to Achamian's Damnation, as I recall Mimara musing, in TJE maybe?). There is reason to suspect, cautiously, that the Mark correlates with Damnation, however, (do we know if the Non-men believe this?) and we know that the Psūkhe does not leave a mark, so I counts it as weak evidence.

Quote
•Creatures such as Sranc, which are naught but the Darkness, are neither damned nor holy (almost like they find oblivion by default).

Sranc are merely soulless; animate dolls made of meat.  They don't so much find Oblivion as they ARE Oblivion.

Quite right! Again, more of a fit with the narrative than direct evidence.

Quote
•The erratic who finds oblivion was an erratic. But to be an erratic is to be entirely surrounded by the Darkness, no?

This is interesting.  If true, perhaps the Dolour is the ultimate savior of the Non-Men, the best thing that could ever happen to them.  But it raises questions about the Inverse Fire, which apparently is the tool the Consult used to recruit erratic Non-Men in the first place; they seem to see themselves in the Pit, which both helps restore them to lucidity and causes them to believe that finding Oblivion is a fool's errand.  Could the Inverse Fire be wrong sometimes?  Could one see oneself as damned but still find Oblivion?  Why would an erratic Non-Man join the Consult if the Inverse Fire showed him finding Oblivion, or otherwise not suffering damnation?  Does it lie and show everybody in the Pit?  That would seem appropriate to its status as The Goad, but Kellhus claimed it burned true and saw himself descending as Hunger, so who knows.

I actually took that line from Kellhus as being spoken by Ajokli---that gazing into the Inverse Fire was a helpful extra link between Ajokli and Kellhus at just the right moment in just the right place... In fact, I kinda thought Kellhus saw Ajokli in the IF, had some battle-of-souls/wills with him (which would explain why Malowebi thought Kellhus stared motionless for so long), and lost. That's all pure speculation, though (and someone has probably already come up with this same theory or a better version of it on the other threads.)

Anyway, I think you point out some really good questions about the Inverse Fire! But they're really questions about Oblivion, not about the Dolour being the path to it. Maybe the Dolour/Darkness is a path to Oblivion or maybe the true path to Oblivion requires some ancient meditation; either way, I'm curious what that Erratic would have seen had he gazed into the Inverse Fire. And either way, we have to explain why an Erratic---of all Non-men!---is our first verified instance of a soul finding Oblivion. The fact that Mekeretrig saw his suffering soul in the IF probably just indicates that there's more to it than simply having been afflicted by the Dolour in some capacity over the years. Maybe Oblivion requires that you die so deep in the memory-loss that your identity has basically already dissolved?

Baztek

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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2017, 10:42:46 pm »
Really interesting speculations in this thread. I really wish we got some descriptions of Paradise.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2017, 09:08:43 am »
How about this?

Staring into the IF temporarily cures the Dolour. Which means even a Erratic will see his damnation. If he died at that moment, he would not find Oblivion.

The Erratic killed by Kakaliol might simply not have looked into the IF recently, giving enough time for the Dolour to take him again. Meaning he could find Oblivion.
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Khaine

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« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2017, 11:53:56 am »
Speaking of Conditioned Ground, the encounter in TTT between Kellhus and Moenghus in retrospect foreshadows the taking over of the Consult by the Dunyain.

Kellhus sees that his father will aligned himself with the Consult to save his soul and will try to assassinate him, and that is when he decides to dispose of his father. And he tells him the enigmatic, I am more (presumably) by that time his interaction with Ajoklis is already in place.

Thus Kellhus in his probability trance predicts the possibility of some Dunyain joining the Consult in order to save themselves.

Knowing was the foundation of ignorance. To think that one *knew* was to become utterly blind to the unknown.

R. Scott Baker, The White Luck Warrior, chapter 12.

ἕν οἶδα, ὅτι οὐδέν οἶδα

Woden

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« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2017, 01:08:14 pm »
True, as soon as I knew the Mutilated were Dūnyain (and I didn't foresee the Dūnsult at all) I remembered that conversation in TTT.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Frail

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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2017, 02:50:12 am »
Speaking of Conditioned Ground, the encounter in TTT between Kellhus and Moenghus in retrospect foreshadows the taking over of the Consult by the Dunyain.

Kellhus sees that his father will aligned himself with the Consult to save his soul and will try to assassinate him, and that is when he decides to dispose of his father. And he tells him the enigmatic, I am more (presumably) by that time his interaction with Ajoklis is already in place.

Thus Kellhus in his probability trance predicts the possibility of some Dunyain joining the Consult in order to save themselves.
Jesus that is good.

Madness

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« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2017, 04:06:50 pm »
Speaking of Conditioned Ground, the encounter in TTT between Kellhus and Moenghus in retrospect foreshadows the taking over of the Consult by the Dunyain.

Kellhus sees that his father will aligned himself with the Consult to save his soul and will try to assassinate him, and that is when he decides to dispose of his father. And he tells him the enigmatic, I am more (presumably) by that time his interaction with Ajoklis is already in place.

Thus Kellhus in his probability trance predicts the possibility of some Dunyain joining the Consult in order to save themselves.
Jesus that is good.

True, as soon as I knew the Mutilated were Dūnyain (and I didn't foresee the Dūnsult at all) I remembered that conversation in TTT.

It was very well thematically paralleled, in my opinion.
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