[TUC Spoilers] Inchoroi souls

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Swayal Serpent

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« on: July 31, 2017, 02:20:09 am »
So I always assumed that the inchoroi were ensouled beings just like Non Men, and Men. But it is revealed in TUC that they are essentially a more advanced weapon race that has been tasked with eliminating damnnation. It appeared as though they had souls because their mission to shut the world seemed to be predicated on their own fear of damnnation.  But according to the mutilated, they are simply artificial beings, same as Sranc, and are simply doing what their programming demands. After reading TUC, im almost certain that inchoroi have no souls. In addition to what we learned from the mutilated, I also remember a passage from one of the books that said something along the lines of "Even though the arc's crash killed most of the inchoroi, a thousand thousand of them still descend upon Earwa" (if any one knows which quote I'm referencing, I would appreciate an exact quote). It seems that the goal is to reduce Earwa's soul population to 144,000, in order to shut the outside. If that's the case, then adding a million ensouled Inchoroi to the population of Earwa would be counterintuitive.

However, we have also seen that the Inchies have the ability to use sorcery. In TTT Maithanet reveals that the skin spy who infiltrated the Mandate was able to use sorcery because it had a soul, and that would suggest that only ensouled beings can use sorcery. It has been established many times that Aurang can use magic, and suggested that Aurax can as well.

So what does everyone think? Are the Inchoroi ensouled?

Blackstone

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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 02:27:33 am »
I think they definitely have souls. It does seem counterintuitive to land a bunch of souled beings on a planet where you are trying to eliminate souls, but the value of their fervor would outweigh that I suppose.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 02:30:26 am »
Yes the Inchoroi have souls. Otherwise they wouldn't see anything in the Inverse Fire.

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 03:20:42 am »
Yes the Inchoroi have souls. Otherwise they wouldn't see anything in the Inverse Fire.

Well there's never really any evidence of the Inchoroi looking into the inverse fire, is there? It seems to be a tool they use to show other people their damnnation, but as far as I can tell, there isn't any mention of the inchoroi being motivated by the inverse fire

generalguy

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« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 03:24:06 am »
Yes the Inchoroi have souls. Otherwise they wouldn't see anything in the Inverse Fire.

Well there's never really any evidence of the Inchoroi looking into the inverse fire, is there? It seems to be a tool they use to show other people their damnnation, but as far as I can tell, there isn't any mention of the inchoroi being motivated by the inverse fire
I think it's explicitly stated that the inchoroi were made to damn themselves and if they ever got to complacent the inverse fire device would "goad" them to continue their work in sealing off the world


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Monkhound

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« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 06:01:33 am »
Yes the Inchoroi have souls. Otherwise they wouldn't see anything in the Inverse Fire.

Well there's never really any evidence of the Inchoroi looking into the inverse fire, is there? It seems to be a tool they use to show other people their damnnation, but as far as I can tell, there isn't any mention of the inchoroi being motivated by the inverse fire
I think it's explicitly stated that the inchoroi were made to damn themselves and if they ever got to complacent the inverse fire device would "goad" them to continue their work in sealing off the world


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That's how I read the explanation given by the Dunyain as well: Sil created the Inverse Fire to remind the Inchoroi of the reason behind their task.
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Crtha

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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 09:39:18 am »
Hmm, I think the Inchoroi and Wracu are what's left of the Progenitors who manned the Ark. They probably wore bodies like suits before the Ark died, just need to transfer the Confluence between synthetic bodies. Then they found themselves trapped in their pyjammas after Arkfall.

Effectively a separate race because they wouldn't even recognize each other across the gulf of time and memory that separates them.

I doubt it really matters much, but that's how I like to believe it went down.
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 11:06:51 am »
Remember, artificiality doesn't affect whether or not you have a soul.  The Skin Spy who was able to work sorcery had a soul and so do a few apes and whales.  Yes, the Inchoroi had souls.  As for the number "a thousand thousand", that's simply a chronicler's way of saying "there's a fuckton of those bastards."  Numbers are really unreliable in pre modern history (and that's ignoring the arguments one can have over numbers and statistics.)

Crtha

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« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 11:24:59 pm »
Remember, artificiality doesn't affect whether or not you have a soul.

+1

See also:  Wracu and the grafting of sorcery. It's definitely doable via the Tekne, and probably not a problem if you have a working Ark.

The Inchoroi wouldn't want the Derived to have souls, it's just not a good idea to make another souled race with their goal.
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Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 11:59:52 pm »
Remember, artificiality doesn't affect whether or not you have a soul.  The Skin Spy who was able to work sorcery had a soul and so do a few apes and whales.  Yes, the Inchoroi had souls.  As for the number "a thousand thousand", that's simply a chronicler's way of saying "there's a fuckton of those bastards."  Numbers are really unreliable in pre modern history (and that's ignoring the arguments one can have over numbers and statistics.)

I didn't really think that artificiality necessarily precluded having a soul, just that it's usually some crazy fluke when it happens. As for a thousand thousand of them, I probably was taking that a bit literally. As for the Dunyain explaining that Sil created the inverse fire to remind them of their damnnation, I must have missed reading that part. I suppose that's the final nail for my theory. Ah well, guess I'll just file this one under crackpot

littlegrice

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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 12:32:56 am »
Random thought:
  What if, because the Gods cannot see the Inchoroi, they don't count?  The whole point is sealing off the world from the outside, and if the outside only sees 144,000 souls, then that's all she wrote.  Could be a billion of em, but if the Gods can't see, the Gods don't care, so they move on, or die, or whatever it is Gods with no worshipers do.  Also, I seem to remember one of the Inchoroi (or one of the Consult) saying they had reduced other worlds to 144,000, only to find themselves still damned, so their whole plan might just be flawed from the get-go.
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Inchoboi

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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 01:50:01 am »
Bakker's post in the Q&A thread re: Kelmomas having "no identity" makes me think that the Confluence is "the soul" because it's where the brainy processes maintain the "you" of your identity. I'm not sure what's wrong with lil Kel to cause the lack of identity  (i.e. why do Sammi and Kel constantly  "soul-swap".) He's insane and has no Confluence? 

Baaadly paraphrasing, he's described by Serwa(?) as a machine programmed to something like dominate his mothers love, or some such, perhaps due to his Dunyain brain processes. In any event, whatever causes or caused it Kelmomas has no true identity, no "soul"... somehow since he's "nobody" he can make the Object work. Wonder if Nau-Cayuti had some sanity issues of his own, or even outside forces causing him to enter such an identity-less state if such is what's required.

This train of thought could  coincide nicely with the Erratic's soul eluding a Ciphrang Bakker on Q&A says the implication is that the Erratic had obtained/reached Oblivion. So does an Erratic have a proper (ly functioning) Confluence? Does he have a true identity? Are the two the same thing?

It's interesting that at times it seems like in a way,  Khellus is all about the loss of identity,  examples "The place that was Khellus", "Here, always here." (Serwa as well seems to show signs of this state on TUC after taking Qirri right?)

What's the difference between Khellus' version of this and Kel's? Is there a difference? Khellus seems aware of himself "becoming here", he seems to be aware of everything! Something to do with the Thousandfold Thought? Is big K GAINING identity when he does this?
Would the No-God have worked with Khellus at all?

Inchoroi MUST have souls, Aurang says "I would save my soul". Their damnation is their goad, we're led to believe.

What implications could soul = identity have on the skin spy sorceror? Could there have been someone else's soul in there, or did it have its own. "Who" was it?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 01:57:23 am by Inchoboi »

generalguy

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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 01:52:11 am »
Remember, artificiality doesn't affect whether or not you have a soul.  The Skin Spy who was able to work sorcery had a soul and so do a few apes and whales.  Yes, the Inchoroi had souls.  As for the number "a thousand thousand", that's simply a chronicler's way of saying "there's a fuckton of those bastards."  Numbers are really unreliable in pre modern history (and that's ignoring the arguments one can have over numbers and statistics.)

I didn't really think that artificiality necessarily precluded having a soul, just that it's usually some crazy fluke when it happens. As for a thousand thousand of them, I probably was taking that a bit literally. As for the Dunyain explaining that Sil created the inverse fire to remind them of their damnnation, I must have missed reading that part. I suppose that's the final nail for my theory. Ah well, guess I'll just file this one under crackpot


Sil didn't create the IF he salvaged it from wreck of the ark and then kept it as desk toy

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 07:07:03 am »
Also, I seem to remember one of the Inchoroi (or one of the Consult) saying they had reduced other worlds to 144,000, only to find themselves still damned
That was Wutteat in Sauglish.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 01:35:20 pm »
The Inchoroi are artificial in the sense a designer baby is artificial. They are derived from the Progenitors and endowed with souls so their appetites might damn them, binding them irrevocably to the mission their creators set for them out of their personal natures and self interest. It's really rather ingenious and ensures they'd carry on beyond all memory of the greater race that spawned them. The end of the book can be a blur especially when marathoned during an emotional high like I tend to do with these, but this is explained quite explicitly and should be made clear on a re-read.