[TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas

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themerchant

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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2017, 12:09:12 am »
The only reason I even considered it is because Bakker says everyone apparently missed something about the Consult, especially given how we're all mocking how stupid and decrepit the original members are.  So after pondering it for a few hours, my conclusion is that Shae wasn't stupid or decrepit.   That's the subversion of expectations.  The readers, all of us, saw Aurang, Aurax and Mek and assumed Shae was one of them - dumb and basically useless.  We saw the Dunyain and we assumed they were as capable as Kellhus - as did Kellhus himself. 

Quote
lie, and the Truth spoke with but one soul.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Location 7184). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

This is a pun...

Nice, that might be it.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2017, 12:29:06 am »
The fear of Dunyain joining the Consult was one of Kelhus's major reasons for killing his father.  We've known about this possibility since the Thousandfold Thought and it's not like Kelhus's, Moenghus's, and Maithenet's accomplishments in the Three Seas aren't a hint that the Dunyain could potentially do this to the Consult.  My question is what about the rest of the Consult.  We see two Inchoroi, one Erratic, and some Dunyain.  What about the rest of the Mangaecca?  Where is the rest of the School that is trying to cheat death?  Only one Nonman despite the number of Erratics in their service and the effectiveness of the Inverse Fire?  The Nonmen could be too damaged, by why no other humans?

Bolivar

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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2017, 12:38:21 am »


The only reason I even considered it is because Bakker says everyone apparently missed something about the Consult, especially given how we're all mocking how stupid and decrepit the original members are.  So after pondering it for a few hours, my conclusion is that Shae wasn't stupid or decrepit.   That's the subversion of expectations.  The readers, all of us, saw Aurang, Aurax and Mek and assumed Shae was one of them - dumb and basically useless.  We saw the Dunyain and we assumed they were as capable as Kellhus - as did Kellhus himself. 

Quote
lie, and the Truth spoke with but one soul.

Bakker, R. Scott. The Unholy Consult: Book Four of the Aspect-Emperor series (Aspect Emperor 4) (Kindle Location 7184). Little, Brown Book Group. Kindle Edition.

This is a pun...


Inchoboi

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« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2017, 12:39:48 am »
Spot on Jurble, I also got this feeling during my first read.

Stuff I thought while reading: Why would they expose and endanger all 5 Dunyain? I think it's a fair Dunyainly assumption that upon finding a Consult Dunyain, Khellus is going to at least tolerate some amount of an exchange of words before insta-killing, some bare minimum question asking/information gathering/plan assessing of some degree. How could he not, right?

So if these "five Dunyain" were expecting a conversation to occur here, I don't see any need for more than one Dunyain to chat with Khellus, and exposing the fact that there are more and exposing ALL of them (indeed, it appears Khellus assumes there are only these 5)  is needless/dumb/unDunyainly.

If "they" were anticipating combat I also think letting Khellus size them up isn't a very Dunyainly thing to do even if some number of them (obviously true for at least 1) could sing Sorcery (Khellus didn't see any Marks that we read about, so no reason to assume he could locate them prior to them revealing themselves, even if all are of the Few). If 4 of these Dunyain (who all know the Ark - and this room has many entrances, recall) could've prepared for a much more tactical approach, it seems in-Dunyainly to me just all walk out at once.

Even disregarding the above though, "their" speech patterns immediately confirmed for me that these "Dunyain" were Shae; it was actually their speech patterns that triggered me to more closely examine the situation and brought about my above suspicions.

Now with the death of one of his "bodies", I'm wondering how such a death will affect him (or indeed, if it even does).

Speaking of... haven't we seen Shae with ten "bodies" so far? At least in TUC, that's the number of Larval bodies in the illusion. Got a feeling as well from the word "subsume"!

Even if we assume that Dunyain bodies are in some way better than the wretches that Shae used to inhabit, such that five is "enough" to house him - would five be "enough" for Shae/the Consult overall? And back to my initial skepticism with it being stupid to reveal all five: if you were Super-Shae with Dunyain-level intelligence, would you put all five of your pieces on the table directly in front of Khellus knowing that if he manages to destroy all five, you're going straight to the hell you've been avoiding for millennia? ("You didn't like the pantomime, heeeere I aaaaam!")

Four remaining "Consult Dunyain" sounds good considering Horsemen and the number of Ajokli's horns, but does sounding likely count for much here?  Food for thought!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 01:03:17 am by Inchoboi »

littlegrice

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« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2017, 12:55:06 am »
Should this theory be correct, I would say that the Dunyain COULD potentially be capable of bearing the strain of an extra soul falling constantly through each of them, much the same way Kellhus can perform multiple inaudible lines to do Meta-Gnostic Cants.  Pretty badass.  And their stunted emotions would make it easier, and if they were in close to the same mental state as the Survivor(so not trully whole, but broken in some fundamental way), then even EASIER.  So sure, Shauriatas DID resist, but convinced them to allow him to join their plans. 

Only thing that I can think of off the top of my head to argue AGAINST this diabolical theory is that at least one of them used magic.  That would probably be REALLY hard(not to mention distracting) with a soul constantly tumbling through you.

Diabolically clever bastards, if this is right.  Which I am slowly beginning to think is the purely English translation of the word Dunyain (diabolically clever, that is).
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

themerchant

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« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2017, 01:10:31 am »
The fear of Dunyain joining the Consult was one of Kelhus's major reasons for killing his father.  We've known about this possibility since the Thousandfold Thought and it's not like Kelhus's, Moenghus's, and Maithenet's accomplishments in the Three Seas aren't a hint that the Dunyain could potentially do this to the Consult.  My question is what about the rest of the Consult.  We see two Inchoroi, one Erratic, and some Dunyain.  What about the rest of the Mangaecca?  Where is the rest of the School that is trying to cheat death?  Only one Nonman despite the number of Erratics in their service and the effectiveness of the Inverse Fire?  The Nonmen could be too damaged, by why no other humans?

There's a small passage during the assault where some more of the consult appear, i can't remember names one was the lord of poison though, and some other names. The Lord of Poison was a Nonman i believe.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2017, 01:47:01 am »
I like the Mutilated/Larval idea, but I think Ajokli would have given us a more bold clue in the face of such multi-souled, hot-potato sorcerous fuckery. It seems like the kind of thing he'd notice.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 01:53:02 am »
I like the idea, since I'm also quite fond of Shaeönanra and I was sad to learn he was dead, but ultimately I think that the Dûnyain are themselves, the similarity being a reflection of their shared goals and nature. In a way, they are effectively (a stronger version of) Shaeönanra, while the real Shaeönanra is burning in Hell.

generalguy

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« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 01:56:19 am »
I like the Mutilated/Larval idea, but I think Ajokli would have given us a more bold clue in the face of such multi-souled, hot-potato sorcerous fuckery. It seems like the kind of thing he'd notice.

yeah I'm 100% sure that the mutilated speaking as they do was intended to mimic the Larval contraption but there's just not enough to go on to prove that they are identical, even if it does make a lot of sense.





Cynical Cat

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« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 02:09:30 am »
Quote

There's a small passage during the assault where some more of the consult appear, i can't remember names one was the lord of poison though, and some other names. The Lord of Poison was a Nonman i believe.

Yeah, some Erratics show up (who may or may not be "Consult") but I don't recall any Mangaecca.

Baztek

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« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2017, 02:12:23 am »
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

littlegrice

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« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2017, 02:19:55 am »
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

But not just Shae...Shae AND the Dunyain.  Not saying I am 100% on board with this theory either, but it would be pretty cool.
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2017, 03:06:31 am »
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

Inchoboi

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« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2017, 06:01:06 am »
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

For me that's part of the fun. I wouldn't "know" half as much as I "know" by just reading the books. It took other people's perspectives on many many things for me to reach conclusions which I've been able to accept... and yes of course, some of them turn out to be wrong. But sometimes they turn out to be right, too...

And it's great discussion either way!

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2017, 09:22:20 am »
Woah, that's an awesome theory, never even crossed my mind. But iirc, Kellhus killed one of the mutilated. Obviously we know very little about soul trapping, but wouldn't destroying one of the bodies cause a major problem, if not outright kill the soul inhabiting it? I really have nothing to base that on, but I don't see any reason to have 5 host boddies unless all are necessary. But I love that theory, though it seems very unlikely, I hope its true

If you want to go real convoluted with it, you can say Shae inhabited the Dunyain Ajokli destroyed, so that Ajokli actually freed the Dunyain and that's why they look at each other assessing whether they others have been freed as well.

I don't buy it though. When one Dunyain starts explaining Ajoklis motivation, who is he talking to? Clearly the other Dunyains, not Kellhus. So does Shae just like talking to himself? I think them being actual Dunyain fits better.

As for their speech pattern, did anyone expect the Dunyains to talk over each other?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 09:49:05 am by Dunkelheit »