[TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas

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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2017, 11:40:15 am »
The speech is that of Dunyain talking to another Dunyain, trying to force him to yield to their circumstances.  It's not at all like Shauriatas as he's been presented in previous conversations.

Woden

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« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2017, 11:54:43 am »
Awesome theory but I don't buy it.
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Madness

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« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2017, 12:48:32 pm »
Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

For me that's part of the fun. I wouldn't "know" half as much as I "know" by just reading the books. It took other people's perspectives on many many things for me to reach conclusions which I've been able to accept... and yes of course, some of them turn out to be wrong. But sometimes they turn out to be right, too...

And it's great discussion either way!

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The Sharmat

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« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2017, 09:13:35 pm »
Why do they have to destroy each other? Maybe Shauriatas is undone as Shauriatas but is now living in symbiosis as a new combined entity with the Dunyain. Maybe it's a mutual arrangement. It would explain how they could do sorcery, in any case. IIRC all the Dunyain with that potential murdered themselves in the prologue of the first book. But if they have a sorcerer's soul being utilized between them, maybe that's not an obstacle.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2017, 10:03:54 pm »
Shae is right there, he's the Mutilated.  He resisted and they lost.

While part of me is convinced Shae is dead, I would really like for this to be the case...

Why do they have to destroy each other? Maybe Shauriatas is undone as Shauriatas but is now living in symbiosis as a new combined entity with the Dunyain. Maybe it's a mutual arrangement. It would explain how they could do sorcery, in any case. IIRC all the Dunyain with that potential murdered themselves in the prologue of the first book. But if they have a sorcerer's soul being utilized between them, maybe that's not an obstacle.

Or this, really interesting possibility there. :)
Even if those DŻnyain who were of the Few apparently committed suicide in TDTCB, it's possible there were others we didn't know about. The ones who committed suicide were those that MoŽnghus would know and be able to contact, perhaps they had offspring (around Kellhus' age?) who were still around by the time the Consult attacked Ishušl.
"But youíve simply made the discovery that Thelli madeóonly without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-AnasŻrimbor KayŻtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

The Sharmat

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« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2017, 10:18:01 pm »
A good point.

I have to wonder about that one Dunyain that was unscarred. Where'd he come from?

littlegrice

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« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2017, 10:20:58 pm »
Why do they have to destroy each other? Maybe Shauriatas is undone as Shauriatas but is now living in symbiosis as a new combined entity with the Dunyain. Maybe it's a mutual arrangement. It would explain how they could do sorcery, in any case. IIRC all the Dunyain with that potential murdered themselves in the prologue of the first book. But if they have a sorcerer's soul being utilized between them, maybe that's not an obstacle.

I don't think it was the ones with the potential, just the ones he contacted, and as I remember they were all elders.  This makes(for me at least) a new question:  Who can receive dreams?  Can it only be the Few?  We know almost nothing of the Pshuke(misspelled?), and so we don't know how those Cants of Far-calling work.  All we know is the ones contacted killed themselves, and the others honored their sacrifice by not snooping.

And I firmly believe that the Dunyain would be capable of sustaining Shauriatas AND acting Dunyain normal.  The way they all came down their own steps, and stayed there, was kind of telling.  And Shauriatas ASSISTING them with Cants is a cool twist to my initial thoughts...Still not sure if this is what happened, but if it did, I can see it. 
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

Purrball

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« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2017, 10:23:50 pm »
Tbh I'm not buying it. Too much of a "gotcha", too much colored string and dots being connected behind the scenes for a pretty lukewarm "twist": that it was Shae all along.

Bakker's tendency to do big surprise reveals and to present fairly opaque but punchy metaphors leads to a tendency for members of this board to shoot off down strange paths based some of the more unusual passages.  This forum is thick with pet theories.

every now and then someone seems to be right though. It certainly surprised me when Cnair showed up alive!

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2017, 10:24:27 pm »
A good point.

I have to wonder about that one Dunyain that was unscarred. Where'd he come from?

It is strange that he is unscarred, because you'd think that between the attack on Ishušl and the subsequent torture endured at Golgotterath, all of them would be noticeably, well, mutilated. Maybe it's just his face that is unscarred and his scars are somewhere Malowebi wouldn't see them?
"But youíve simply made the discovery that Thelli madeóonly without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-AnasŻrimbor KayŻtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

The Sharmat

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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2017, 11:17:10 pm »
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2017, 01:37:09 am »
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?

Searching obsessively since the ending of The Warrior-Prophet.  They had a lot of time and manpower.

Somnambulist

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« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2017, 02:41:58 am »
Just to add fuel to the Dunsult/Shauriatas gestalt idea:  Cants of Compulsion could basically rewire the Dunyain to 'agree' to house Shauriatas' soul (or whatever), creating the aforementioned construct.  I think the Larvals were more shorn of will than passion.  While the Dunyain certainly have little to no passion, they definitely have monstrous wills.  Without Compulsions, I don't see how this setup would work.
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Triskele

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« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2017, 03:23:37 am »
Isn't it possible that Shae lives on within the larvae but just doesn't run the show anymore?  Maybe he was not very powerful anymore beyond his intellect and was de facto leader of the Consult based on intellect and the universal need to revive Mog?  Would the Dunyain even need to do anything to Shae to overcome him other than just establish themselves as the new authorities within the Ark?

The Sharmat

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« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2017, 12:57:07 pm »
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?

Searching obsessively since the ending of The Warrior-Prophet.  They had a lot of time and manpower.
They don't seem to really have that much manpower from what we see in this book, though. Perhaps that's a result of Dunyain predations, but perhaps not.

I'm suggesting that maybe they found Ishušl because an exiled Dunyain found them and told them where it was.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2017, 01:40:14 pm »
That would be a nice logical conclusion for the real world but since this is a book I assume we're meant to notice this and be drawn to this one untouched guy among all surviving Dunyain.

Is it possible he came to Golgotterath by an entirely different route? Hm.

How did the Consult first find Ishušl, anyway?

It's possible, but I don't think we have enough information on him to be able to draw further conclusions. Maybe we'll learn more about him in TNG?
"But youíve simply made the discovery that Thelli madeóonly without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-AnasŻrimbor KayŻtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)