[TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas

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Somnambulist

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« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2017, 02:05:40 pm »
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Nah, Shauriatas hijacked Seswatha's mummification ritual, so it's actually him floating around through all the Mandati and Swayali, not Seswatha.  He's been there the whole time!  Fight me!
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« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2017, 02:19:52 pm »
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Nah, Shauriatas hijacked Seswatha's mummification ritual, so it's actually him floating around through all the Mandati and Swayali, not Seswatha.  He's been there the whole time!  Fight me!

You have to show up to Zaudunyanicon first ;).
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H

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« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2017, 02:22:59 pm »
I don't think Shae is the actual Muitilated.  The Mutilated are the new engines of the Consult.  Shae simply stepped back.

Why did he resist?  Because he realized that Resumption was in better hands with the Mutilated.  He allowed them to overcome him, probably because he could be a better puppet-master from the shadows, rather than an equal in plain sight.  It would be highly suspicious if he just killed himself to achieve that, so he just availed himself to Dûnyain-assisted suicide.

Shae is dead, but Shae is not gone, that's why Bakker is being coy.

Same as Kellhus being dead, but Kellhus is not gone.
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codebread

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« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2017, 04:12:55 pm »
Shae is dead, but Shae is not gone, that's why Bakker is being coy.

Same as Kellhus being dead, but Kellhus is not gone.

In the Q&A thread I asked a question about how Bakker defines "Death" in this universe, precisely for this reason. I think I asked too late, though.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2017, 04:27:06 pm »
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Nah, Shauriatas hijacked Seswatha's mummification ritual, so it's actually him floating around through all the Mandati and Swayali, not Seswatha.  He's been there the whole time!  Fight me!
That...actually makes a kind of sense.

JRControl

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« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2017, 04:29:02 pm »

Shae is dead, but Shae is not gone, that's why Bakker is being coy.

Same as Kellhus being dead, but Kellhus is not gone.

Really? I got the impression from all the other tidbits that Kellhus is dead dead because Dunyain are spiritually weak and thus especially at risk in the Outside. His best option being dead in the Void between and not being roasted by Yatwer or Momas.

It's very interesting that the lack of a solid identity is the key component of the Carapace. Makes me also think back to when Kelmo was playing with the bug. Ajokli was the bug after all.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2017, 07:47:20 pm »
There is still a problem with Kellhus closely scrutinizing the Dunsult and seeing them as Dunyain. He pretty much should've seen inconsistencies in their behavior if they were Compelled or under unusual strain (like sharing Shauriatas's soul among them). For example, Kellhus was able to see the illusion of Shauriatas as an illusion without ever meeting him.
Seeing through fake-Shauriatas would have been ridiculously easy for either Kellhus or Ajokli, though, even if highly distracted. The real Shauriatas would have been deeply Marked. And we know from later on when Akka first sees fake-Kellhus that the holographic projector cannot replicate the Mark.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2017, 07:52:16 pm »
The real Shauriatas would have been deeply Marked.
While he should, by all means, have been Marked, it's actually completely unclear how that would look like considering his unorthodox method of keeping himself alive.

Oh, and also, Markless Kellhus descending to his host might have been a conscious decision to invoke religious hysteria. I haven't read that scene as confirming limits of the Dunsult's holographic projection. And if it is limited in such a way, then why try to fool Kellhus with it? Right now we attribute use of sorcery to at least one of the Dunsult. He should've seen that shortcoming.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 08:03:56 pm by SmilerLoki »

Walter

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« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2017, 07:57:29 pm »
He might be the MOST marked of any being.  Like, he is literally the Cheater Of The Gods. 

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2017, 08:08:05 pm »
Some of you guys going to Zaudunyanicon have to get Bakker drunk and make him answer this.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2017, 08:28:58 pm »
While he should, by all means, have been Marked, it's actually completely unclear how that would look like considering his unorthodox method of keeping himself alive.

I wonder if Shauriatas' Mark would have been somewhat diluted - it's still his soul in there, so it can't be gone, but he's been using multiple bodies for millennia in order to remain alive. It's plausible it would be changed somehow.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #86 on: August 04, 2017, 10:08:33 pm »
Obviously Ajokli is Shauriatas.

Madness

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« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2017, 11:03:01 pm »
...

Duskweaver :D!

Some of you guys going to Zaudunyanicon have to get Bakker drunk and make him answer this.

Which question now?

I'm actually thinking about making a thread here to collect questions to ask him. We're hoping to video tape and post online his talk and Q&A from the Friday night.

One week from today even! Fuck, I'm been so busy recovering and living SlugLife 2.0 that I haven't even started looking forward to it yet.
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OntaSensitiveCone

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« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2017, 12:44:07 am »
Really interesting ideas in this thread!

My $0.02:
The thing I kept wondering when seeing the Mutilated was, why are they, all but one, mutilated?
  • Maybe Shauriatas tortured them; or
  • maybe they happened to lose body-parts in self-defense, the way Koringhus got his scars; or
  • maybe they sacrificed a bunch of body parts for experiments with the Ark---maybe trying to get the Ark birth "Srâncyain"

All of these possibilities seem reasonable, but they don't answer the question of why just one of them isn't scarred. Here's one answer that works for all three possibilities: the unscarred one is Shauriatis, or was Shauriatis once.

Examine the scene where Kellhus talks to the Dûnsult. One of the first things he asks is "How long did it take to purge the Thousand Thousand Halls?":

Quote
    "One thousand six-hundred and eleven days," the second figure replied. He alone appeared unscarred and intact, though his attitude was so remote as to be cruel.
    "We could not cope with the Erratics," the third added. This one bore two great scars on his head:
 the first a vaginal pit in lieu of his right eye; and the second more subtle, a slash the length of a hand-scythe, rimming the perimeter of his head from crown to throat, as if someone had abandoned an attempt to remove his face.
    "That is," the Aspect-Emperor said, "until they took you captive."

(Note that the unscarred person rather un-Dûnyainishly has an expression that looks "cruel" to Malowebi.)

That last line seems like an intentional meaning to either Shauriatis or the Dûnyain: either "until [the Dûnyain] took [you, Shauriatis] captive" or "until [the Consult] took [you, the Dûnyain] captive". Throughout this whole conversation, the assumption seems to work: the unscarred one calls to and instructs Aurang; he never talks about Shauriatis in the third person---only the others do. He's the one who says "we have scrutinized the Ark." When the Dûnyain talk about their own history, the unscarred one does not contribute; instead he talks about the progenitors.

I think all of this is consistent with the idea that the Dûnyain merged souls and subsumed Shauriatis in some fashion; when they say "So Shauriatis alone was undone." what they mean is that they broke him down until he no longer had any individual identity.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 01:00:06 pm by Madness »

littlegrice

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« Reply #89 on: August 05, 2017, 12:50:45 am »
So...new plan.  We ALL go to Zaudunyanicon, corner the man and make.  Him.  Tell.

I already told old Brandon Sanderson that if he doesn't step it up with his Stormlight Archive writing pace I was gonna have to start leaving poops in his mail box.  Bakker can get the same treatment, just in person.  Seven books is long enough.  Time for some strait answers.

Long shot here, but anybody own a polygraph machine?
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.