[TUC Spoilers] Shauriatas

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2017, 03:29:44 pm »
It is unconfirmed. We never actually see any of this. There's no reason to suspect it's authenticity though. What would be the utility of lying about the origin of the Inchoroi for them?
What would be the utility in obfuscating Shauriatas's survival...?

It's not that I can't think of something (as a matter of fact I can cook up dozens of answers to both your and my questions), it's that I think such severe overcomplification of the events based on arbitrary considering some parts of the narrative true and some false serves no purpose.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2017, 03:32:19 pm »
If Shauriatas is alive, it's either obscuring a resource they possess, or (if he's floating around in the Mutilated) self preservation. Telling Kellhus their deductions about the nature of the Consult, the No-God and the origins of the Inchoroi have utility in attempting to rationally bring him to their side, which they thought the most likely course after showing him damnation. Telling them these things loses them nothing from their view since he is in ground they've conditioned and most of these facts change nothing, apart from giving them an appearance of honest discourse.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2017, 03:38:20 pm »
If Shauriatas is alive, it's either obscuring a resource they possess, or (if he's floating around in the Mutilated) self preservation. Telling Kellhus their deductions about the nature of the Consult, the No-God and the origins of the Inchoroi have utility in attempting to rationally bring him to their side, which they thought the most likely course after showing him damnation. Telling them these things loses them nothing from their view since he is in ground they've conditioned and most of these facts change nothing, apart from giving them an appearance of honest discourse.
Unless they are lying and there are deeper truths behind all of those things. Which is precisely what I dislike about the Shauriatas/Mutilated theory. It doesn't give us any information, it takes away information we obtained from the narrative.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2017, 04:07:16 pm »
That's fair.

BabyKellhus

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« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2017, 05:17:50 pm »
I don't know if this was mentioned or not, but if Shauriatas actually is the mutilated, why would he turn Aurax into a little bitch? Or was that Aurang we saw at the end of Warrior Prophet?

The Sharmat

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« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2017, 05:33:14 pm »
Assuming Shauriatas is the mutilated:

1. There is the possibility you imply, that Aurax has actually been like this for a very long time and his psychological condition has nothing to do with the Dunyain. Possible since he doesn't seem to get out much (Unless that was Aurax in the epilogue of Warrior Prophet). Although that raises the question of what the hell happened to him in the first place.

2. Aurax sided with the Dunyain in a failed coup and Shauriatas was very mad. This would be contingent on the variant of the theory of Shauriatas taking over the Dunyain in a hostile fashion.

3. It's some kind of trick to cozen Kellhus and Aurax isn't actually that whipped. Kellhus hasn't had a ton of practice reading Inchoroi.

Those are the only possibilities I can think of.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2017, 12:19:20 am »
Bakker said something about Shae using a number of soul trapping techniques.

BabyKellhus

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« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2017, 12:26:35 am »
Yeah I have to agree, I wish we knew more about Aurax and Aurang's deal. Why would Aurang try to fend off Kellhus while Aurax was cowering behind the mutilated. I guess we can assume that Aurang went against the nutilated, but then that's extra confusing if we think Shaw is the mutilated, considering the two were lovers and they wanted Kellhus to come to the golden room.

I'm sorry, my rants lack punctuation, I get all stream of conscious like when it comes to these books haha

littlegrice

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« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2017, 12:35:37 am »
Assuming Shauriatas is the mutilated:

1. There is the possibility you imply, that Aurax has actually been like this for a very long time and his psychological condition has nothing to do with the Dunyain. Possible since he doesn't seem to get out much (Unless that was Aurax in the epilogue of Warrior Prophet). Although that raises the question of what the hell happened to him in the first place.

2. Aurax sided with the Dunyain in a failed coup and Shauriatas was very mad. This would be contingent on the variant of the theory of Shauriatas taking over the Dunyain in a hostile fashion.

3. It's some kind of trick to cozen Kellhus and Aurax isn't actually that whipped. Kellhus hasn't had a ton of practice reading Inchoroi.

Those are the only possibilities I can think of.

Aurax has just become less with age, I think.  And they weren't exactly shining stars among the Inchoroi to begin with, right?

And, should this Doomsult theory hold true, then I hold that the Dunyain and Shauriatas are symbiotic, but the Dunyain still strive for domination, as always.  I think if Shauriatas is there, he is there in whispers, maybe not even spoken aloud by the Dunyain.  He has become, after so long, just another tool.
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

Wilshire

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« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2017, 01:27:54 am »
Which is precisely what I dislike about the Shauriatas/Mutilated theory. It doesn't give us any information, it takes away information we obtained from the narrative.
Yeah at some point something has to be taken at face value.  The conversations we get between dunyain, imo, are the closest we ever get to the truth about what's happening. 

Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .
One of the other conditions of possibility.

littlegrice

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« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2017, 02:08:42 am »
Yeah at some point something has to be taken at face value.  The conversations we get between dunyain, imo, are the closest we ever get to the truth about what's happening. 

If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?

I hate arguing, but I just feel like I HAVE to ask the contrary question here.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 01:41:13 pm by Madness »
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

lazarus

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« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2017, 06:27:06 am »
I dislike this theory of Shae taking over Mutilated.
But Bakker is coy on Shae.
Still, it needn't be Shae that took over Mutilated.
Bakker said on AMA:
Quote
Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak.
This applies to Mutilated as well!
They were tortured / had to fight Shae / had to reorganize Consult, so also distracted like Kelhus.
OK, what kind of entity could do it?
- Ajokli: doesn't make sense.
- Yatwer: doesn't make sense.
- Other gods? Husyelt? Gilga÷l? None is really foreshadoed in the books.
- Shae as ciphrang: doesn't make sense.
- A strong soul/ciphrang that died at Golgotterath?
- Kelhus himself as ciphrang (atemporal etc)?
But none of it sounds any simple.

Does anybody remember if there were any details how for instance wight-in-the-mountain took over cleric?


Ahh, I planned a nice big 1st post with some kind of sorted thoughts on TUC, but...

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2017, 07:50:53 am »
If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?
Taking into account what Bakker said about the gradual possession by Ajokli that Kellhus was suffering, it seems to me the passages about turning the world into hell belong to Ajokli (they are at the very end of the Golden Room sequence, when Ajokli is said to take over completely). Were those lines written in bold in the book?

Hiro

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« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2017, 10:54:07 am »
If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?
Taking into account what Bakker said about the gradual possession by Ajokli that Kellhus was suffering, it seems to me the passages about turning the world into hell belong to Ajokli (they are at the very end of the Golden Room sequence, when Ajokli is said to take over completely). Were those lines written in bold in the book?

I believe so, yes.
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Madness

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« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2017, 01:43:59 pm »
Maybe shae is around still, but, what, he made a magical hologram that nobody could see? Gosh, maybe he blinded himself and learned the psuke as well :P .

Lol, I'll just be over here quietly pimping my Shauriatas Upload Hypothesis.

If that conversation was truth, then why would Kellhus talk about turning the world itself into a hell for them to feast on, when Bakker specifically said he intended to save the world?

I hate arguing, but I just feel like I HAVE to ask the contrary question here.

I've maintained for weeks now that all dialogue past the noxious threshold that Aurang opens for Kellhus, that Malowebi warns him against, and up until Kelmomas interrupts Ajokli's God-Mode makes more sense if attributed to Ajokli rather than Kellhus.
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