Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed

  • 57 Replies
  • 7787 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jurble

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
« on: July 31, 2017, 08:53:07 pm »
In response to my question:
"In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese.  But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated).  Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four?  If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function?  How did they manage it with so little sane manpower?  "

Bakker replied

Quote
Your second question leads me to believe that pretty much everyone has missed a certain boat, in which case, I can only say, RAFO!


In response to Likaro's question:

"3. It seems kind of foolish that the Consult would bring Dunyain back as prisoners. Was it simple arrogance that made them feel safe in doing so, or are you actually kind of saying that the Consult brain trust isn't that great and has degraded?"

Bakker replied
Quote
3) Hmmm. I'm beginning to suspect that something rather significant has gone unrecognized. Either way, humility is not among the many virtues enjoyed by the Consult.



So... what are we missing? Clearly there's something about the Consult (and, specifically, the Minds behind it) that's everyone has missed.  My own thoughts are that the Erratics aren't Erratic inside the Ark, similar to Mekeritig given the intensity of trauma they experienced inside it.   Or the rest of the Mangaecca.... are just off-screen and alive somewhere? 

Woden

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 08:54:40 pm »
I was about to post the same.

Frankly I have no idea of what could be.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 09:00:30 pm »
To the second question, a simple explanation would be that not all the scars the Mutilated bear were given to them in the Thousand Thousand Halls.

Tyrin

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 09:39:02 pm »
Hahaha I came here to make this exact thread!

I've been trying to wrack my brain for possible answers but I remain perplexed. I'm going to reread relevant parts later to see if anything jumps out at me.

jurble

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile

Tyrin

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2017, 02:32:03 am »
I think I found what Bakker was talking about:

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2300.msg36505#msg36505

I like this crackpot quite a lot, and would be happy if it was true.

In the event that it's not true, I've been trying to go over everything we know about the Consult's core members (since our apparent lack of understanding of their intellect/power seems to be the thing sparking Bakker's responses), though I haven't really come up with anything, and certainly nothing approaching "missing a certain boat" or not recognizing "something very significant".  If it's not the Shae thing, then I don't know what it could be.

Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 03:18:00 am »
Uh, the Consult thought they were all that and they weren't. Like, they make quite a few mistakes thanks to hubris. I think that is all that is being said here.

They thought they could use the Dunyain that they captured (or who surrendered) but they got dominated instead. Not a huge issue for them though, they made the No-god to enslave themselves, after all. Only Shae was egomaniac enough to resist.

Seems like the rest of the Mangeacca and the Aporetics perished long ago - or maybe they are hanging with Nin'janjin and Emilidas. Who knows?
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 03:25:18 am »
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?

Cüréthañ

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2017, 03:39:11 am »
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?

I doubt the Consult had sufficient mastery of the Tekne at the time, or Shae himself would have gone for that solution.

I do feel like the Wracu (sans Wutteat) are possibly synthetic bodies rehousing souls from a time before the Inchoroi had exhausted that tech.

Perhaps the Mutilated can get some Ghost-in-the-Shell machines working in time for the third series. ;)
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2017, 04:06:18 am »
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?

I doubt the Consult had sufficient mastery of the Tekne at the time, or Shae himself would have gone for that solution.

I do feel like the Wracu (sans Wutteat) are possibly synthetic bodies rehousing souls from a time before the Inchoroi had exhausted that tech.

Perhaps the Mutilated can get some Ghost-in-the-Shell machines working in time for the third series. ;)
Yeah that's true.
I do believe the Dûnyain will start making new Tekne artifacts. Idle hands are the Devil's workshop...

locke

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 05:04:49 am »
Maybe the skin-spies are regrafted Mangaecca members?

I doubt the Consult had sufficient mastery of the Tekne at the time, or Shae himself would have gone for that solution.

I do feel like the Wracu (sans Wutteat) are possibly synthetic bodies rehousing souls from a time before the Inchoroi had exhausted that tech.

Perhaps the Mutilated can get some Ghost-in-the-Shell machines working in time for the third series. ;)
Yeah that's true.
I do believe the Dûnyain will start making new Tekne artifacts. Idle hands are the Devil's workshop...
Idle hands? With all the masturbating to do?

Triskele

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Condouchioned
  • Posts: 196
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 05:13:50 am »
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2619
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 10:56:43 am »
Unless, of course, Shae realized that the only way to beat a Dûnyain was with more Dûnyain.

He probably thought that he could completely master them, with the help of the Inverse Fire.  He probably did, but he either failed in the end, or succeeded in a more modest degree.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5742
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 11:17:11 am »
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 
I'm firmly right here.
Its yet another example of how hubris leads to downfall. After all, whats to fear when you have them shackled, and when you've got magic? Nothing. Nothing that thousands of years of experience hasn't taught - that everything is within your control. Just as Triskele says "you assume nothing has changed" - and why would they? Nothing had changed in thousands of years.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2017, 11:21:01 am »
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.

2. Mangaecca was a whole School, not just Shauriatas by himself. The Mutilated say that he was the only one who resisted them and was undone. It's unlikely the implied others are exclusively Aurax, Aurang, and Mekeretrig, since at that point Kellhus met every single one of those three (not to mention they obviously weren't undone and replaced by holograms).