Apparently, we've missed something about the Consult that we should have noticed

  • 57 Replies
  • 7783 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hiro

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2017, 11:21:46 am »
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 
I'm firmly right here.
Its yet another example of how hubris leads to downfall. After all, whats to fear when you have them shackled, and when you've got magic? Nothing. Nothing that thousands of years of experience hasn't taught - that everything is within your control. Just as Triskele says "you assume nothing has changed" - and why would they? Nothing had changed in thousands of years.

^ This.
Mystery denotes darkness

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5742
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2017, 11:40:29 am »
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.
Can you explain this, I don't think I follow. What's the implication?


2. Mangaecca was a whole School, not just Shauriatas by himself. The Mutilated say that he was the only one who resisted them and was undone. It's unlikely the implied others are exclusively Aurax, Aurang, and Mekeretrig, since at that point Kellhus met every single one of those three (not to mention they obviously weren't undone and replaced by holograms).

Phrasing is particularly important for the Dunyain, and the line I agree that the line I bolded above might imply that Shae may have been the only one to die.

Though, Shae wasn't the kind of person to keep rivals around. When I read the only scene we have of him in his little larval soul circle thing, I got the impression that he murdered his  entire school and chopped them up in order to save himself. If that's not the case, and there's little supporting information for it, then there may yet be a school in Golgotterath.

Assuming you are right, follow up question, is that of major importance? With the NG and an army of sranc, I'm not sure the Consult really need a school. Or, I guess the real question, do you think this is what Bakker is hinting at that we missed?
One of the other conditions of possibility.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2619
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2017, 11:57:57 am »
Well, at the very least, Sos-Praniura, Lord-of-Poisons who was the founder of the Mangaecca, was still alive.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2017, 12:20:44 pm »
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.
Can you explain this, I don't think I follow. What's the implication?
I'm completely unsure here, but this bothers me. Nin’ciljiras was a direct descendant of Nin'janjin, who joined the Inchoroi during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars. It's unlikely he was alone (some Sons of Viri rebelled against their King at the sight of the Inchoroi, but only some). And while Nin'janjin died, other Nonmen (like Aporitics) might have worked with the Inchoroi way before any Erratics joined the Consult in search of trauma. So while Aurax and Aurang where the last of the Inchoroi when found by Mangaecca, there might have been Nonmen hidden in the Ark with them. The sudden appearance of a descendant of Nin'janjin, a supreme traitor in the eyes of his own race, seems to correlate with this theory.

There were also, I think, some mentions of Viri's treachery in TUC that might be relevant, but I can't find them without re-reading the book.

Assuming you are right, follow up question, is that of major importance? With the NG and an army of sranc, I'm not sure the Consult really need a school. Or, I guess the real question, do you think this is what Bakker is hinting at that we missed?
I don't think anything is as important as the Whirlwind walking again. Also we were supposed to pick up on whatever we've missed, so it's probably a stroke that complements the whole picture, not significantly changes it.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2017, 12:46:50 pm »
I'll need to finish reading and also actually read through and follow along with Bakker's Q&A thread but I'm fairly sure what Bakker thinks is clear - while likely not as clear as he thinks - requires much less mental gymnastics than found in this thread.

Though, common, if you want to bust out a quick nerdanel (where are you, you blessed sage?!), Shauriatas obviously uploaded himself to Ark ;).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2017, 02:12:37 pm »
There are interesting things about Viri in the Glossary.

First we have:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary - "Consult"
The Mangaecca raised Nogaral upon Viri soon after, pretending to plumb the destroyed Nonman Mansion while in fact plumbing the Upright Horn—the intact heart of the Incû-Holoinas.
But then:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary
Dagliash—“Shieldhold” (Ûmeri). The ancient Aörsic fortress overlooking the River Sursa and the Plains of Agongorea, raised in 1601 by Nanor-Mikhus, High-King of Aörsi, upon the ruins of Viri.

Also found the quote on Viri that interested me most in TUC:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Seventeen
“There were three of us,” Mekeritrig continued, raising his eyes to the Inverse Fire. “Wise Misariccas, cold and cruel Rûnidil, and myself. We were wary. Sil had managed to turn not just Nin-janjin, but all of the Viri—a people famed for their mulish will! We knew it had something to do with this place ...”
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 03:42:59 pm by SmilerLoki »

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2017, 02:25:48 pm »
There are interesting things about Viri in the Glossary.

First we have:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary - "Consult"
The Mangaecca raised Nogaral upon Viri soon after, pretending to plumb the destroyed Nonman Mansion while in fact plumbing the Upright Horn—the intact heart of the Incû-Holoinas.
But then:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary
Dagliash—“Shieldhold” (Ûmeri). The ancient Aörsic fortress overlooking the River Sursa and the Plains of Agongorea, raised in 1601 by Nanor-Mikhus, High-King of Aörsi, upon the ruins of Viri.
Also found the quote on Viri that interested me most in TUC:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Seventeen
“There were three of us,” Mekeritrig continued, raising his eyes to the Inverse Fire. “Wise Misariccas, cold and cruel Rûnidil, and myself. We were wary. Sil had managed to turn not just Nin-janjin, but all of the Viri—a people famed for their mulish will! We knew it had something to do with this place ...”

You can read about the destruction of Nogaral in the false Sun at the back of TUC.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2619
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 02:30:22 pm »
There are interesting things about Viri in the Glossary.

First we have:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary - "Consult"
The Mangaecca raised Nogaral upon Viri soon after, pretending to plumb the destroyed Nonman Mansion while in fact plumbing the Upright Horn—the intact heart of the Incû-Holoinas.
But then:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", the Encyclopaedic Glossary
Dagliash—“Shieldhold” (Ûmeri). The ancient Aörsic fortress overlooking the River Sursa and the Plains of Agongorea, raised in 1601 by Nanor-Mikhus, High-King of Aörsi, upon the ruins of Viri.
Also found the quote on Viri that interested me most in TUC:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Seventeen
“There were three of us,” Mekeritrig continued, raising his eyes to the Inverse Fire. “Wise Misariccas, cold and cruel Rûnidil, and myself. We were wary. Sil had managed to turn not just Nin-janjin, but all of the Viri—a people famed for their mulish will! We knew it had something to do with this place ...”

Dagliash and Nogaral are not the same thing though.  Dagliash was made on top the ruins of Nogaral after the events of TFS.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 02:31:56 pm »
You can read about the destruction of Nogaral in the false Sun at the back of TUC.
Here I'm interested in why Mangaecca felt the need to excavate Viri, or appear to be excavating Viri, when in reality they were focused on rummaging through Golgotterath. While somewhat close, those places are not that close. It took the Great Ordeal days to get from Dagliash to the Horns. I'm not sure I understand the first quote in my previous post in this context.

P.S. I've read "The False Sun" way back when. I love it!

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 400
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 03:33:50 pm »
I'm not sure what the boat is, but I think it's quite possible that the overconfidence of the Consult was quite well-demonstrated by Nayu in TTT.  When he addresses Aurang-as-Bird he continues to tell it that it still doesn't get what it's now dealing with in the Dunyain.  He says something like "You assume nothing has changed.  I assure you, everything has changed."  It seems like the Consult eventually decided it was worth it to assault Ishual and thought that was the "getting it," but they still didn't, and the fools took Dunyain "captives." 
I'm firmly right here.
Its yet another example of how hubris leads to downfall. After all, whats to fear when you have them shackled, and when you've got magic? Nothing. Nothing that thousands of years of experience hasn't taught - that everything is within your control. Just as Triskele says "you assume nothing has changed" - and why would they? Nothing had changed in thousands of years.

^ This.
To this, I'd add that the Mutilated specifically call out Aurang and Aurax being from a warrior caste.  I suspect that Shae was the brains of the operation -- Aurang and Aurax were like Rocksteady and Bebop from TMNT.

Likaro

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2017, 03:47:44 pm »
I think his cryptic response to my question makes me think that Shae took over the Dunyain and he is playing Kellhus. He needs bodies shorn of passions to occupy and the Dunyain fit that mould perfectly.

I HOPE now that I've thought about it, that is the case.

I'm kind of sick of the Dunyain being the ultimate-at-everything, and was kind of dismayed to find out the Consult were a bunch of paper tigers.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5742
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2017, 04:15:21 pm »
The only two possibly relevant things that come to my mind at this point are as follows:

1. The Consult pulled Nin’ciljiras out from somewhere to install him in Ishterebinth as the last Nonman King.
Can you explain this, I don't think I follow. What's the implication?
I'm completely unsure here, but this bothers me. Nin’ciljiras was a direct descendant of Nin'janjin, who joined the Inchoroi during the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars. It's unlikely he was alone (some Sons of Viri rebelled against their King at the sight of the Inchoroi, but only some). And while Nin'janjin died, other Nonmen (like Aporitics) might have worked with the Inchoroi way before any Erratics joined the Consult in search of trauma. So while Aurax and Aurang where the last of the Inchoroi when found by Mangaecca, there might have been Nonmen hidden in the Ark with them. The sudden appearance of a descendant of Nin'janjin, a supreme traitor in the eyes of his own race, seems to correlate with this theory.

There were also, I think, some mentions of Viri's treachery in TUC that might be relevant, but I can't find them without re-reading the book.

Ah ok. I've never thought of that, makes sense though.

Assuming you are right, follow up question, is that of major importance? With the NG and an army of sranc, I'm not sure the Consult really need a school. Or, I guess the real question, do you think this is what Bakker is hinting at that we missed?
I don't think anything is as important as the Whirlwind walking again. Also we were supposed to pick up on whatever we've missed, so it's probably a stroke that complements the whole picture, not significantly changes it.

I guess I just don't see how it complements, either way. Though, if it takes a whole school to boot up the No-God, I don't think a single dunyain, though probably metagnostic, would be able to achieve that.
I'd take some solace in that Bakker said he'd give direct answers to things pertaining to the points he was trying to make more obvious. Whatever this is, its obfuscated on purpose.

I think his cryptic response to my question makes me think that Shae took over the Dunyain and he is playing Kellhus. He needs bodies shorn of passions to occupy and the Dunyain fit that mould perfectly.

I HOPE now that I've thought about it, that is the case.

I'm kind of sick of the Dunyain being the ultimate-at-everything, and was kind of dismayed to find out the Consult were a bunch of paper tigers.

Duunyain supremacy is largely an illusion though. The dunyain suffer as the gods do from their own blindness. Are they some kind of super human race bred over thousands of years, yeah sure. But they still screw up like the rest of us. We haven't seen a single dunyain, full or half,  actually succeed - unless you're of the camp that thinks Moenghus, Koringhus, and Kellhus ascended into heaven and now rule gently over us all as the father, son, and holy ghost.
A more reasonable outcome is that they are all dead, they failed because of mistakes they made.

But yeah, dunyain vs. human must end with dunyain winning. Its really the basis of the entire story, and while some humans got close they always lost. I'd be disappointing if random mostly-dead sorcerer guy from X thousand years ago somehow beat 5 super-humans as it doesn't fit particularly well into the worldbuilding (imo).

One of the other conditions of possibility.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 552
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2017, 04:25:32 pm »
I guess I just don't see how it complements, either way. Though, if it takes a whole school to boot up the No-God, I don't think a single dunyain, though probably metagnostic, would be able to achieve that.
I was thinking more along the lines of underscoring the Consult's resources here.

Duunyain supremacy is largely an illusion though. The dunyain suffer as the gods do from their own blindness. Are they some kind of super human race bred over thousands of years, yeah sure. But they still screw up like the rest of us. We haven't seen a single dunyain, full or half,  actually succeed - unless you're of the camp that thinks Moenghus, Koringhus, and Kellhus ascended into heaven and now rule gently over us all as the father, son, and holy ghost.
A more reasonable outcome is that they are all dead, they failed because of mistakes they made.

But yeah, dunyain vs. human must end with dunyain winning. Its really the basis of the entire story, and while some humans got close they always lost. I'd be disappointing if random mostly-dead sorcerer guy from X thousand years ago somehow beat 5 super-humans as it doesn't fit particularly well into the worldbuilding (imo).
I should say I'm more or less in the same camp, at least presently.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 04:48:10 pm by SmilerLoki »

Likaro

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2017, 04:29:03 pm »
-But Shae is not an idiot in fact he has been shown to be very clever in the False Sun, and presumably after thousands of years of mental activity he would be even smarter. He also should know much more about sorcery and soul trapping/possession than fresh out 'da hall Dunyain would, after what, only three years from Ishaul? The Dunyain are masters at certain things but the things they are ignorant of- they are helpless. So to me it does fit in the worldbuilding that he could take 5 down because of their ignorance of sorcery.

Since they are all carved up it seems to me that someone was picking them apart trying to figure out what made them kick? Or were the mutilations done by fellow Dunyain before the Consult captured them, or after by the consult?

Anyway, even Kellhus had to be taught Gnostic sorcery. He wasn't so brilliant that he could just watch Akka and pick it up, because of the inutterals.

So that means someone had to have taught the Dunyain Mutilated sorcery. So either Aurang and Mek were subsumed and were the teachers... or Shae is doing the casting.

Tyrin

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2017, 04:45:43 pm »
-But Shae is not an idiot in fact he has been shown to be very clever in the False Sun, and presumably after thousands of years of mental activity he would be even smarter.

Right. I mean, he and Aurang tricked and killed Titirga, who was basically the most powerful mage in history until Kellhus. (Kellhus is even directly compared to Titirga in TGO, iirc)

So that means someone had to have taught the Dunyain Mutilated sorcery.

That's the big question. Maybe a simple answer is that the Consult specifically sought out the Dunyain to capture/convert them to their cause, and settled on just taking a handful since taking all of Ishual would be much more risky/unpredictable. In that case everyone (except Shae possibly for reasons of pride/ego) is fine adding them to the cause since even if they "dominate", ultimately all of them are slaves to the Ark/No-God anyway, so it's basically a question of semantics.

On the other hand the specific assumption that seemed to trigger Bakker's reply that we've missed "something significant" seems to be the assumption that the Consult is severely undermanned and/or stupid. The reason I don't think the answer is as simple as hubris/arrogance is that it's too obvious and doesn't strike me as "significant", though my value judgment there is clearly subjective.