[TUC Spoilers] Thoughts post-AMA slog/Unholy Consultation thread

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littlegrice

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« on: August 03, 2017, 02:10:43 am »
The RAFOs
  1.  Significance of the 4121 deaths
  2.  People of Eanna...he RAFO'ed this like 4 times
  3.  Any mention of the potential survivors of the Ordeal
  4.  The Heron Spear

Confirmed we are gonna see Meppa again.  This pleases me.

He dodged the SHIT out of the statement regarding Shauriatis' fate, while in the same breath destroyed the Mangaecca.

Best quote for me "There's the matter of the last surviving full Dunyain Anasurimbor on the loose--that's what's been commanding my attention most these days."

Also his statement that he is now an exploratory writer.  Makes me a wee bit afraid for the No-God.  The whole exploratory writing thing never really sat well with me in the epic fantasy genre.  It's why I never really enjoyed Song of Ice and Fire.  There's no fun in re-reads when the man is just making up shit as he goes.  Read it once, experience it, then on the shelf it goes, to rot forever more.

All in all, a good solid chunk of shit that confirms(to me, anyway) that some of our crackpot theories are at least swinging in the proper direction, even if they remain crackpot.  I hope he manages to get back on and put some more down, so that I can such it dry(phrasing...boom!).

[EDIT Madness: Title.]
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 11:29:24 pm by Madness »
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

BabyKellhus

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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2017, 02:22:25 am »
More than anything I want to know where Kellhus went, I know Bakker says he's dead, but what about his soul? Did he achieve oblivion/absolute? My head hurts

littlegrice

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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2017, 02:25:55 am »
More than anything I want to know where Kellhus went, I know Bakker says he's dead, but what about his soul? Did he achieve oblivion/absolute? My head hurts

Nobody in the AMA that I saw actually straight up asked Bakker where Kellhus went or why Ajokli couldn't find him, but my guess is we would be treated to a big fat RAFO.  Still, that would be nice, just as a confirmation one way or the other.
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2017, 02:53:21 am »
The RAFOs
  1.  Significance of the 4121 deaths
  2.  People of Eanna...he RAFO'ed this like 4 times
  3.  Any mention of the potential survivors of the Ordeal
  4.  The Heron Spear

Confirmed we are gonna see Meppa again.  This pleases me.

He dodged the SHIT out of the statement regarding Shauriatis' fate, while in the same breath destroyed the Mangaecca.

Best quote for me "There's the matter of the last surviving full Dunyain Anasurimbor on the loose--that's what's been commanding my attention most these days."

Also his statement that he is now an exploratory writer.  Makes me a wee bit afraid for the No-God.  The whole exploratory writing thing never really sat well with me in the epic fantasy genre.  It's why I never really enjoyed Song of Ice and Fire.  There's no fun in re-reads when the man is just making up shit as he goes.  Read it once, experience it, then on the shelf it goes, to rot forever more.

All in all, a good solid chunk of shit that confirms(to me, anyway) that some of our crackpot theories are at least swinging in the proper direction, even if they remain crackpot.  I hope he manages to get back on and put some more down, so that I can such it dry(phrasing...boom!).
Keep in mind Frank Herbert made up shit as he went along and it turned out fine, for the most part. The fate of Shauriatis was a pleasant surprise. Keeping my eyes open for the 4121 thing.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2017, 03:28:13 am »
More than anything I want to know where Kellhus went, I know Bakker says he's dead, but what about his soul? Did he achieve oblivion/absolute? My head hurts

Nobody in the AMA that I saw actually straight up asked Bakker where Kellhus went or why Ajokli couldn't find him, but my guess is we would be treated to a big fat RAFO.  Still, that would be nice, just as a confirmation one way or the other.
The way I see it the just born Ajokli as Cnaiür couldnt'see him because he'd just died and is in the Outside, where the newborn Ajokli is not because the No-God is around. The greater Ajokli, who is Outside, is from Cnaiür-Ajokli's perspective, something that has not yet happened. Of course from the Ajokli-in-the-Outside's perspective, he's always existed, long before the moment of his birth.

In a way this may mean that Cnaiür has actually been manipulating Kellhus for some time. Just, a "future" version of him. Ensuring his own birth then attempting to deliver him to a place where he could conquer him and the last remaining Dunyain, only to be foiled by the No-God, who he's rendered himself blind to.

Kellhus himself is presumably a great hunger in the Outside, as shown in the Inverse Fire. So no damnation at least.

Baztek

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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2017, 03:47:03 am »
Kellhus does say he was trying to conquer Hell. Was his gambit the whole time killing two birds with one stone? Destroying the Consult and ruling hell? But how is the Eternal even a problem to begin with if Kellhus is a hunger that's supposed to conquer it, as in he must have always-already conquered it right? Were his motivations as base and uninspired as abooga wooga me am a god now? Literally final Fantasy-tier. None of this shit makes any fucking sense.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 03:52:35 am by Baztek »

littlegrice

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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2017, 03:53:20 am »
So Bakker straight up said Kellhus' goal was to stop the Resumption of the No-God and save the world.

"Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak."

This quote indicates to me that Kellhus DIDN'T want Ajokli there, or couldn't stop him, so he maybe had to make other plans.  It also indicates(again, to me at least) that much of what Kellhus said, maybe since the very beginning of the Golden Room scenes, was all Ajokli, and not Kellhus.
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

littlegrice

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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2017, 03:55:00 am »
Oh, and a side-note, would Ajokli looking into the Inverse fire just see, like a closed circuit TV broadcast of his living room?  Makes a bit more sense, then, his answer about what he observed.
Well, he no talkie good like me and you, so his vocabulistics is limited to 'TELL ME...' and 'WHAT DO YOU SEE?' and, 'WHAT AM I?' Exclusively in that order.

BabyKellhus

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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 04:04:27 am »
Yeah and I was also thinking about the length of time that Ajokli had been potentially possessing Kellhus. I think we can assume that Ajokli was speaking to him while on the circumfix. But if Ajokli was in control why would this moments of humanity displayed by Kellhus in the last book even happen? Why would Ajokli bother pretending to care about these people? I'm so lost haha

The Sharmat

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« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 04:07:45 am »
Reddit by R. Scott Bakker sounds like an interesting book I should read some time. Strange he chose to set it in the same universe as the Second Apocalypse and make it so necessary to that series' plot.

Baztek

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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2017, 05:18:54 am »
So I guess in addition to wondering what kinda 4D chess maneuver Kellhus is aiming at whenever he opens his mouth in a normal scene we're supposed to guess he didn't want to be possessed by the demon god he made a pact with and that every word out of his mouth past some arbitrary point (shouldn't all of angogorea be a topos) is no longer him and we're supposed to somehow parse that out?

Way too convoluted man.

Hiro

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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2017, 07:56:40 am »
The RAFOs
  1.  Significance of the 4121 deaths
  2.  People of Eanna...he RAFO'ed this like 4 times
  3.  Any mention of the potential survivors of the Ordeal
  4.  The Heron Spear

Confirmed we are gonna see Meppa again.  This pleases me.

He dodged the SHIT out of the statement regarding Shauriatis' fate, while in the same breath destroyed the Mangaecca.

Best quote for me "There's the matter of the last surviving full Dunyain Anasurimbor on the loose--that's what's been commanding my attention most these days."

Also his statement that he is now an exploratory writer.  Makes me a wee bit afraid for the No-God.  The whole exploratory writing thing never really sat well with me in the epic fantasy genre.  It's why I never really enjoyed Song of Ice and Fire.  There's no fun in re-reads when the man is just making up shit as he goes.  Read it once, experience it, then on the shelf it goes, to rot forever more.

All in all, a good solid chunk of shit that confirms(to me, anyway) that some of our crackpot theories are at least swinging in the proper direction, even if they remain crackpot.  I hope he manages to get back on and put some more down, so that I can such it dry(phrasing...boom!).
Keep in mind Frank Herbert made up shit as he went along and it turned out fine, for the most part. The fate of Shauriatis was a pleasant surprise. Keeping my eyes open for the 4121 thing.

Regarding the RAFO's, they are evocative, however, I bear in mind that RSB has apparently not planned out TNG as he had PON & TAE. So there is an ambiguous tension here.

 ;)
Mystery denotes darkness

Asmodeus van Yakshas

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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 08:05:25 am »
After Scott's AMA (where he states quite clearly that Kellhus is dead, to stop Resumption was his goal and that TTT has run its course) I realize that I probably overestimated Kellhus. Up until now I thought all of this must be part if some convoluted Masterplan, that Kellhus who has conquered the Three Seasons and always seems to know what's going on couldn't fail so spectacularly.

What I forgot is that Kellhus has not reached the Absolute and is not a self-moving soul. He has extraordinary abilities but he is still not free from the darkness that comes before. And as he himself admits, the closer he comes to Golgotterath, the greater the darkness.

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2017, 08:14:06 am »
So Bakker straight up said Kellhus' goal was to stop the Resumption of the No-God and save the world.

"Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak."

This quote indicates to me that Kellhus DIDN'T want Ajokli there, or couldn't stop him, so he maybe had to make other plans.  It also indicates(again, to me at least) that much of what Kellhus said, maybe since the very beginning of the Golden Room scenes, was all Ajokli, and not Kellhus.

In my opinion much of what Kellhus says makes little sense coming from Ajokli. I think the possession is not and either-or thing, more like a sliding scale. As time goes on he slides from Kellhus to Ajokli, until he is full on Ajokli with his head on fire.

Moosehunter

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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2017, 09:10:10 am »
RAFO's from Reddit:

 1.
"Hi Scott. Big fan since i picked up the first book back in 2004. You're the only author i still purchase in print form.
About your latest book: The Unholy Consult.
I'm going to leave others to ask about the Golden Room, Kellhus/Ajokli and whether or not Shauriatus is soul disperded amongst the Dunyain.
What i really want to know is what is the significance of all the untimely deaths in 4121 and does it tie in with Kellhus training in the Daimos. Anything to do with the Decapitants.
And if you are feeling really generous, could you say if we will ever hear more of Eanna and the tribe that repudiated the Tusk.
Many thanks"

RScottBakker22
Some shrewd questions, SimilarSimian... I fear your spade has struck hard, golden RAFO.

2.
Are the gods actively at odds with one another? It seems like Ajokli and Yatwer at least are on opposite sides in this thing.
Will we see anything from the people of Eanna? I assume every child being stillborn is a global thing, and raises concerns all over. Are there any eastern Nonmen? Nonmen that were never exposed to the Womb Plague?
I feel like Zeum, as the only intact Earwan nation will play a large role in The No-God.
And one small final thing, as I was browsing the Appendices last night, I noticed that Ikurei Conphas' entry has no date of death... I'm guessing that it's just a glitch saved over from TTT appendices and never updated, but you've thrown a few curveballs that I have missed over the years.

RScottBakker22 
Yes, the Gods do strive and compete in their incomprehensible ways. Zeum has no choice but to throw off its arrogance and insularity, and as for Eanna, all I can say is RAFO.
The Conphas entry is just an oversight. Some 'errors' are intentional on my part, however. For one, prescientific encyclopedias are messy, messy things, and for another, working on the EG makes me feel like God... a cruel and wicked one.

3.
Big fan of world building, so i have to ask: What is in Eanna, and will we see it at some point. I know from a world building POV that all authors need an end to their world (this question could also be asked of Tolkien, GRRM, etc.), but the Kayarsus mountain range at the Eastern edge of your map makes me wonder about the relationship between Eanna and Earwa.
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RScottBakker22 
RAFO - the second one!
One thing I can say is that edges of my maps will never be filled in. What characterizes ancient worlds, profoundly, I think, is the degree to which they are encircled in darkness.

4.
Hey Bakker! Apperantly you have replied already to my questions in the forum so I deleted them from here. One new question now,did Serwa, Kayutas or Saccarees survive?

RScottBakker22
That would be a big fat RAFO, my friend! Unless, that is, that dumptruck I've been fearing finally finds me in the near future. In which case, they are duly dead.

5.
A question that might get a BIG RAFO: When did Ajokli and Kellhus reach an agreement? Did it ever happen or was Kellhus "ambushed" by Ajokli in the Golden Room (since it is topos it was possible for Ajokli to enter the world). I have a hard time imagining that this was what The Thousandfold Thought was supposed to lead to. If Kellhus made a bargain with Ajokli already at the circumfixion (as some suggest) it seems to me that TTT died with Moenghus and all the plans and The Great Ordeal was really the actions of an avatar of Ajokli, designed to elevate him above all other gods.

RScottBakker22
Think of the gradual possession suffered by Sorweel whilst wearing the Amiolas. Kellhus knew something was up, but the 10-sided die was cast. The great weakness of the Dunyain is the weakness discovered by Moenghus. For all the power of their intellect, their spirit is actually quite weak.

6.
Thanks for making these books my friends and I are completely obsessed with. Just have a few questions.
1) Not much info is provided regarding he breaking of the gates. When the mean of Eanna came to Earwa. Is there anyone left in Eanna? What else is happening on this world outside of Earwa and Eanna? If there are men, non-men, or other lifeforms elsewhere, can they sense Mog Pharau? Can the creators of the Ark sense him from their faraway home? We know more about the void than we do about anything beyond the Kayarsus!
2) Where is the heron spear!? I've been teased by the heron spear for 7 books. It says in the glossary that it was lost when the Scylvendi sacked Cenei. I was so sure that Cnaiur had it and was going to bring it out at the last second, but then he didn't.
3) Thanks for at least mentioning characters like Xinemus and Inrau in this latest volume. In previous volumes it really felt weird that somehow they had been completely forgotten, even though so many years had passed.

RScottBakker22
Thanks, apreche!
1) RAFO. 2) RAFO. 3) Your welcome. I agree. The texts should have been more interpolated.

End of RAFO's:

My guess is that Eanna is coming to us but we are not going to Eanna. Whether that simply entails us gaining some knowledge of what is happening/happened out there or that tribe physically coming to Earwa. I always thought it somehow pertinent that RSB left a tribe there and made sure to draw our attention to the fact that they could invade again with the destruction of the Shiradi Empire.

4121 may turn out to be Kellhus using the Daimos in some way similar to the Psukhe/Gnosis dream messages. He can move between vessels/souls but only if he is very familiar with the person (i'm really stretching here).

He seems to have made it quite clear (for RSB that is) that Ajokli has been subverting Kellhus gradually for some time. Possibly as far back as the Circumfix.

I think i'm going to start the slowest reread ever.