[TUC Spoilers] Kellhus telling Proyas "at some point, the Inchoroi must win"

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TLEILAXU

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« on: August 04, 2017, 01:52:57 am »
Has anybody grasped the meaning of this yet? I asked about it in the AMA and got this reply
Quote
Is that what he says?
. There's something I'm not grasping. Any ideas?

[EDIT Madness: Title, still doing [TUC Spoilers] until Tuesday.]
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 01:25:59 pm by Madness »

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2017, 03:58:09 am »
I had the feeling he was using it as demonstration for the intellectual argument: the gods are blind to the Consult, meaning they fall outside eternity, meaning the world is severed from the Outside at some point.

If he DID mean they had to win in fulfillment of his own plans... we'll have to RAFO.

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Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

Walter

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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 04:31:30 am »
He is making the point that Resumption must take place at some point, because otherwise Momas could just earthquake the Arc.  The Consult are shielded from the Gods by the fact that they are the servants of the No-God, which will end the Gods atemporal existence.  The Consult thus operate outside of their notion of time, remaking them with each action that they take.

Notably, this gives us some hope for the next series, as the Inchoroi's 'victory' has now come to pass.  There is no similar guarantee that the No-God be victorious, it could be destroyed once again.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2017, 10:38:26 am »
Thanks. I'll have to chew on this for a bit.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 04:38:08 pm »
Yeah the world has to be severed permanently from the Outside at some point, but it doesn't have to be at this time. So now I have to wonder: were the Gods blind to Nau-Cayuti?

Walter

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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 04:41:40 pm »
Seems like they'd have to be, yeah?

Duskweaver

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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 06:11:10 pm »
were the Gods blind to Nau-Cayuti?
Further to this, what do Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have in common that makes them both suitable Subjects for the Carapace? Is it really as simple/boring as sharing Anasurimbor blood? Did Nau-Cayuti have a dead twin? Is there some significance to having a living and a dead soul falling endlessly through a single body (almost an inverse Shauriatas)? Does that form its own circuit of watcher and watched, a loop closed to the Outside?
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 07:26:11 pm »
Okay I still don't get it. I get that Momas casts a lvl 100 Earthquake on Momemn because he is blind to the Ark, but why does the existence of the Ark explicitly mean eventual Inchoroi victory?
were the Gods blind to Nau-Cayuti?
Further to this, what do Nau-Cayuti and Kelmomas have in common that makes them both suitable Subjects for the Carapace? Is it really as simple/boring as sharing Anasurimbor blood? Did Nau-Cayuti have a dead twin? Is there some significance to having a living and a dead soul falling endlessly through a single body (almost an inverse Shauriatas)? Does that form its own circuit of watcher and watched, a loop closed to the Outside?
Bakker explained it in the AMA. It's not the blood specifically, but the brain structure.

Walter

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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2017, 07:38:23 pm »
The Gods are beings that see all of time at the same moment.  Think of them like viewers of a tv series, who can fast forward or rewind at will.  They can 'write' the WLW and similar interventions into the flow of history flawlessly.  (No Mark on the earthquake, etc.)

The No-God is the being that ends time.  He is a virus that eats away at the inside/outside connection.  Static on the line.  No amount of flipping through channels can ever catch sight of him, because he is the off button.

When the No-God triumphs, the Gods are blind.  One day the Gods will be blind to the No-God, and therefore they ALREADY ARE.  They are atemporal beings.  'Spoiled', if you will.

So for chumps like mortals, who view the series one episode at a time...this is super worrying.  Imagine you are starting to read TDTCB, and you hear a bunch of readers who have already seen the end talking about how Kellhus took down Conphas.  That is hugely worrying to you as a Leweth fan, because it necessarily means that Kellhus doesn't marry Leweth and live with him forever.

Similarly, if Momas isn't earthquaking the No-God it means that the No-God will one day blind him.  That means that Kellhus isn't going to succeed in stopping it from being created, because if he was going to do that it would never blind Momas, which means Momas could see it now/in the past, and earthquake it.


Duskweaver

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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2017, 08:05:04 pm »
Bakker explained it in the AMA. It's not the blood specifically, but the brain structure.

I was using 'blood' in the general sense of "inherited physical/biological similarity". But in any case it doesn't make a lot of sense that Kellhus could have essentially the same brain structure (relative to other humans) as his distant ancestor after however-many generations of Dunyain selective breeding for intellect.

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 11:18:25 pm by Madness »
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2017, 08:07:14 pm »
Bakker explained it in the AMA. It's not the blood specifically, but the brain structure.
I was using 'blood' in the general sense of "inherited physical/biological similarity". But in any case it doesn't make a lot of sense that Kellhus could have essentially the same brain structure (relative to other humans) as his distant ancestor after however-many generations of Dunyain selective breeding for intellect.
That's what makes me think there is a wallop there somewhere.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2017, 08:17:23 pm »
The Gods are beings that see all of time at the same moment.  Think of them like viewers of a tv series, who can fast forward or rewind at will.  They can 'write' the WLW and similar interventions into the flow of history flawlessly.  (No Mark on the earthquake, etc.)

The No-God is the being that ends time.  He is a virus that eats away at the inside/outside connection.  Static on the line.  No amount of flipping through channels can ever catch sight of him, because he is the off button.

When the No-God triumphs, the Gods are blind.  One day the Gods will be blind to the No-God, and therefore they ALREADY ARE.  They are atemporal beings.  'Spoiled', if you will.

So for chumps like mortals, who view the series one episode at a time...this is super worrying.  Imagine you are starting to read TDTCB, and you hear a bunch of readers who have already seen the end talking about how Kellhus took down Conphas.  That is hugely worrying to you as a Leweth fan, because it necessarily means that Kellhus doesn't marry Leweth and live with him forever.

Similarly, if Momas isn't earthquaking the No-God it means that the No-God will one day blind him.  That means that Kellhus isn't going to succeed in stopping it from being created, because if he was going to do that it would never blind Momas, which means Momas could see it now/in the past, and earthquake it.
I get that the Gods are a-temporal but the No-God stands outside eternity etc., but why does the mere existence of the Ark presuppose system resumption - and success? The only that this can make sense is if the Ark was destined to be successful since its inception.
Also, Bakker's reply seems to indicate that what Kellhus is saying is not that the Inchoroi literally must win.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 08:24:29 pm by tleilaxu »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2017, 08:20:39 pm »
An answer from the recent reddit AMA is relevant here:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
3) The Ark isn't invisible, only its meaning. That's the disfiguring absence.

MSJ

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« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2017, 08:28:35 pm »
Trust me the Inchoroi will not win. You want quotes, i aint got em. I just think this is the lesson Bakker wants to teaxh us. Bakker is worried that the world is headed towards AI and all that. The pursuit of immortality, so TSA is a cautionary tale. TNG will be the lesson. That humanity is capable of amazing things on its own.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2017, 08:32:06 pm »
Trust me the Inchoroi will not win. You want quotes, i aint got em. I just think this is the lesson Bakker wants to teaxh us. Bakker is worried that the world is headed towards AI and all that. The pursuit of immortality, so TSA is a cautionary tale. TNG will be the lesson. That humanity is capable of amazing things on its own.
I agree. As Wutteat put it:
Quote
BECAUSE THIS WORLD REFUSES TO DIE!