[TUC spoilers] The visions - Not Ajokli?

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Frail

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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2017, 01:00:05 am »
So.... does Ajokli finally see the No-Godthrough Cnauirs eyes? This is a big deal going into the third series, right?

I am still confused on how little Celmomas could have always been the No God, because if he made a deal with Ajokli early on then the Gods surely can see him. I assumed Celmomas just fit the lineage well enough and that the Consult wanted to wait and see what Kellhus would do before unleashing the No-God, (since any of the Dunyain could have fit that place.)

Quinthane

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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2017, 02:58:02 am »
(since any of the Dunyain could have fit that place.)

Not just any of the Dunyain. only an Anasurinbor can fuel the NoGod.
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Frail

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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2017, 03:09:27 am »
are not all dunyain Anasurimbor? I thought they just took the namesake of the "boy who lived" prince who was left at IshuaL?

Redeagl

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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2017, 04:14:38 am »
are not all dunyain Anasurimbor? I thought they just took the namesake of the "boy who lived" prince who was left at IshuaL?
The boy opened the gates of Ishual to the original Dûnyain refugees. They probably taught him afterwards or his descendants ( AKA Kellhus, Moe,  Koringhus etc.... ) .
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Cüréthañ

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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2017, 04:35:18 am »
Koringhus muses on the Anasûrimbor as the most promising of the 12 'germs'. The dunyain clearly are practicing an Earwan form of eugenics, and seemingly focus on the paternal line of descent.

The most important thing here, I think, is that the Anasûrimbor line has the rare distinction of both Halaroi and Ishroi ancestors, thus intersecting the two ensouled races on Earwa.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 08:07:10 am »
Koringhus muses on the Anasûrimbor as the most promising of the 12 'germs'. The dunyain clearly are practicing an Earwan form of eugenics, and seemingly focus on the paternal line of descent.

The most important thing here, I think, is that the Anasûrimbor line has the rare distinction of both Halaroi and Ishroi ancestors, thus intersecting the two ensouled races on Earwa.
A big problem has arisen for this theory. The Rape of Omindalea might not be canon at all or not entirely. Is it anywhere in the actually included in the published books Glossaries, and if it is, then to what extent? Because we now have Bakker telling us that Men-Nonmen hybrids are sterile. So the fact that a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Omindalea's son, might not be, well, factual.

Also Bakker has stated that not even all Anasurimbor would make the No-God function. He was emphasizing the peculiarity of Kelmomas's mind/identity as the quality that allowed him to complete the No-God's circuit. So the importance of the lineage is now very much in question for me.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 08:09:03 am by SmilerLoki »

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 08:54:43 am »
Huh, well maybe he changed his mind since writing and disseminating that timeline with the rape of Omandelia. Maybe he's just being contradictory to evoke mystery.

Kelmomas is certainly and odd kid, but we have no similar peculiarities hinted about about Nau-Cayuti or Kellhus. Of course, the Consult tortured the heck out of Nau Cayuti for five long years before they decided to chuck him in the carapace, they never thought there was anything that special about him. Yet the Mutilated talk like it's fairly obvious that Nau Cayuti was the appropriate Subject and seem to have based their strategy on using Kellhus as the proper replacement. Were the Gods blind to Nau Cayuti? Maybe. Are they blind to Kellhus? Nah.

I guess I can see maybe three similarities between these three Subjects that we could say have been sufficiently foreshadowed.
1) They are Anasurimbor and Ancestor Lists are Very Important.
2) They are all genetic prodigies and/or mad.
3) They represent the hope of their peoples. (Yeah this one is pretty weak)

The other option is to accept that the Mutilated based their strategy on the Celmomman prophecy showing Kellhus as the Harbinger. Which seems pretty dumb tbh, seeing as Kelmomas isn't in it.

Aside:  Isn't it also weird that it's the C and K's in the glossary that get switched up. Then we have (C)elmomas and (K)elmomas. 2spooky Bakker!
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2017, 09:32:13 am »
The other option is to accept that the Mutilated based their strategy on the Celmomman prophecy showing Kellhus as the Harbinger. Which seems pretty dumb tbh, seeing as Kelmomas isn't in it.
I feel there is something relevant with prophecies here.

pail

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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2017, 01:49:40 pm »
The Rape of Omindalea might not be canon at all or not entirely. Is it anywhere in the actually included in the published books Glossaries, and if it is, then to what extent?

It's mentioned in both glossaries as the name of the event that brought an end to the Tutelage, but with no details.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2017, 02:02:19 pm »
The Rape of Omindalea might not be canon at all or not entirely. Is it anywhere in the actually included in the published books Glossaries, and if it is, then to what extent?

It's mentioned in both glossaries as the name of the event that brought an end to the Tutelage, but with no details.
Thank you! That's what I remembered myself, but I wasn't completely certain.

Sausuna

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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2017, 02:19:27 pm »
The other option is to accept that the Mutilated based their strategy on the Celmomman prophecy showing Kellhus as the Harbinger. Which seems pretty dumb tbh, seeing as Kelmomas isn't in it.
Well, Kelmomas would be in it, no? Isn't the entire Celmoman prophecy just that an Anasurimbor would return at the end of the world? And Kelmomas is an Anasurimbor. I think they legit believed Kellhus was the No-God, but were willing to accept the idea that Kelmomas might be as a sort of backup. And given his 'I told you they can't see me' line, that'd be a good piece of information to go off of.

I think it kind of went that the Mutilated assumed it was Kellhus based off the prophecy and bloodline. But then when they managed to capture Kellhus and heard his claims about being blind to the gods, figured they might as well try to see if Kellhus would work, but would use Kelmomas all the same if not.


I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.

H

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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2017, 02:47:38 pm »
I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.

Bakker acknowledged that my thinking that the suitability to operate the Sarcophagus (i.e. become the No-God) is a reflection of closely mirroring the soul of an original insertant.

So, we should ask, who would that have been?  My guess is an actual Progenitor.  Their sin, recall is being too close to Absolute.  So, therefor, only a soul sufficiently close to the Absolute is a candidate.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2017, 03:29:43 pm »
I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.

Bakker acknowledged that my thinking that the suitability to operate the Sarcophagus (i.e. become the No-God) is a reflection of closely mirroring the soul of an original insertant.

So, we should ask, who would that have been?  My guess is an actual Progenitor.  Their sin, recall is being too close to Absolute.  So, therefor, only a soul sufficiently close to the Absolute is a candidate.
I recall seeing that answer. I was just under the impression that Nau Cayuti was the original insertant in that context. I don't remember how you phrased the question when I saw it, though, for some reason I thought it was about why was Kelmomas fine.

The theory seems reasonable, though I would still question how Kelmomas would fit. I'm not sure where he stands in comparison to the Absolute that might be similar to where Nau Cayuti was. Or (if the Mutilated truly believed) where Kellhus stood towards it.


H

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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2017, 03:40:38 pm »
I had the feeling for a long time that Nau Cayuti was meant to be the subject that would be the No-God, but I always thought something unique about his torment related it (so I had a crack-pot theory Kellhus was working with the Consult to torment all the Ordealsmen to recreate that to make a No-God). Anyway! Really have to wonder what about Nau Cayuti that would make him so special. I might need to reread his dream scenes.

Bakker acknowledged that my thinking that the suitability to operate the Sarcophagus (i.e. become the No-God) is a reflection of closely mirroring the soul of an original insertant.

So, we should ask, who would that have been?  My guess is an actual Progenitor.  Their sin, recall is being too close to Absolute.  So, therefor, only a soul sufficiently close to the Absolute is a candidate.
I recall seeing that answer. I was just under the impression that Nau Cayuti was the original insertant in that context. I don't remember how you phrased the question when I saw it, though, for some reason I thought it was about why was Kelmomas fine.

The theory seems reasonable, though I would still question how Kelmomas would fit. I'm not sure where he stands in comparison to the Absolute that might be similar to where Nau Cayuti was. Or (if the Mutilated truly believed) where Kellhus stood towards it.

Yeah, perhaps my question wasn't as succinct as it could have been.  It's plausible that this means the Kel was near to Nau, but I thought I by framing it inside a question of "other worlds" it would mean more about the pre-Eärwa insertents, however, that might not be a Bakker took it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2017, 03:45:28 pm »
Yeah, perhaps my question wasn't as succinct as it could have been.  It's plausible that this means the Kel was near to Nau, but I thought I by framing it inside a question of "other worlds" it would mean more about the pre-Eärwa insertents, however, that might not be a Bakker took it.
Considering that the Dunsult refer to the No-God as "the prosthesis" of the Ark, and the Ark itself had functioned fully before the Earwan crash-landing, it can't be said with certainty that the No-God existed pre-Earwa.