Why would the Inchoroi fear damnation?

  • 57 Replies
  • 5141 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« on: August 06, 2017, 07:13:16 pm »
We learn through the series that particular nasty individuals, those with the strongest wild, who have the most vile ill - intent, tend to become Ciphrang.

But not the Inchoroi? I don't buy it. By all the reasoning given, Aurang for sure, and probably *all* of the Inchoroi, fall into this category.
You are the fist that beats us.

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 07:16:51 pm »
I don't think just being really evil is all it takes to be a ciphrang. We only see two, maybe three confirmed cases. And even then, being a Ciphrang isn't necessarily very fun. Gin'yursis seemed to be suffering quite profoundly even as the master of his own mini-hell.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 07:27:52 pm »
But Cnaiur would enjoy himself quite a lot, I think. Anyway, the point is that as nasty a piece of work Cnauir (or Ginyursis or any of them are)or how strong willed they are, they pale in comparison, no? Ten thousand years of hatred, of inflicting misery and pain, drenched in suffering and malice. Come on!
You are the fist that beats us.

jurble

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 47
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 08:05:27 pm »
I don't think just being really evil is all it takes to be a ciphrang. We only see two, maybe three confirmed cases. And even then, being a Ciphrang isn't necessarily very fun. Gin'yursis seemed to be suffering quite profoundly even as the master of his own mini-hell.

Right, Gin'yursis, confirmed as Ciphrang, still talked about himself being damned.  So "better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" doesn't really apply to Ciphrang.  Sure, you aren't getting eaten, but it doesn't seem pleasant.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2017, 08:40:37 pm »
OK, I fear we're missing the point. Let me rephrase the question not as "why would they fear damnation" but rather "why wouldn't they all be Ciphrang".
You are the fist that beats us.

Crtha

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2017, 09:10:16 pm »
It seems pretty clear that the inverse fire reveals only certain facts of individual damnation.

The JE shows both examination and redemption exist, even for shitbags like Galian.

The non-men who were exposed believe oblivion is a lie, but we have seen that even erratic can attain it.

The IF is a tool to goad it's victims, intended to enslave rather than enlighten.

Same logic would apply for ascension as Ciphrang. The progenitors who created the Ark clearly only wanted those who serve the Inverse Fire to seek one nihilistic goal, not to consider other options.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Baztek

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Aleph Jester
  • Posts: 137
  • "We are all of us brothers. Read these."
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2017, 09:14:20 pm »
Why wouldn't the Inchoroi become a part of Gierra's, or whoever is the goddess of lust, paradise?

Woden

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2017, 09:25:51 pm »
They are so fucking perverted that even in lust paradise are too hardcore for Gierra.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2017, 11:03:15 pm »
The non-men who were exposed believe oblivion is a lie, but we have seen that even erratic can attain it.
Since that's the only one we've ever seen manage it, for all we know only an erratic could attain it.

I honestly don't think we have enough information here to answer why the Inchoroi aren't ciphrang.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2017, 11:11:55 pm »
I can't help but wonder if it's to do with Earwa's literal anthropomorphism, as in "the Gods are centered around Men".
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 11:20:50 pm by SmilerLoki »

Crtha

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 12:48:16 am »
The non-men who were exposed believe oblivion is a lie, but we have seen that even erratic can attain it.
Since that's the only one we've ever seen manage it, for all we know only an erratic could attain it.

I honestly don't think we have enough information here to answer why the Inchoroi aren't ciphrang.
You are missing the point. The mechanics of avoiding damnation are not important.

We know the Inverse Fire is a tool of control. It's a compelling truth, but not the whole truth. Any Dunyain knows the value of partial truths in conditioning via deception.

The Inchoroi are conditioned to believe there is only one way to save their souls because of that. Extermination.

We know that Oblivion is an option. They deny that.

We know that Redemption can come from the one God or the Hundred. They say EVERYONE is damned forever.

We know you can level up your soul. They aren't interested.

Logical induction dictates being careful with immortality means not dying means no damnation. They would rather render themselves extinct trying to shut the world.

Maybe exterminating everyone and erasing history will work to save their souls, maybe they are doing it to free the progenitors from Hell, or maybe the progenitors just want to terraform planets.

Point is, their mission is focused to one goal only, the Inverse Fire is there to keep them on track.

Happily for them, the Dunyain want to do the same thing in pursuit of a Self Moving Soul. The Inverse Fire is barely required to get them to join according to Kellhus PoV in TTT.



« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:18:38 am by Crtha »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 12:59:31 am »
Eh, I'm tired of plot points that require everyone but Kellhus being a moron.

Plus I'd argue the mechanics of damnation are in fact the single most important thing in the series, so we clearly don't see eye to eye on some very basic premises. And the mechanics are kind of critical to the entire subject of this thread.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:02:17 am by The Sharmat »

Crtha

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 01:10:51 am »
I merely tried to clarify my point.

You don't get it, that's fine, we'll leave it there.

edit: at any rate, it's not about Inchoroi dumb - Kellhus smart. Simply that there are important things made clear to the reader that contradict the Inchoroi perspective. Kellhus was plenty wrong too and died for it.



« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 01:41:43 am by Crtha »
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5252
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 02:05:56 am »
We learn through the series that particular nasty individuals, those with the strongest wild, who have the most vile ill - intent, tend to become Ciphrang.

But not the Inchoroi? I don't buy it. By all the reasoning given, Aurang for sure, and probably *all* of the Inchoroi, fall into this category.

Inchoroi aren't from Earwa?
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

The Sharmat

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Horde General
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 02:06:59 am »
That may be important, I'd never considered that. It is apparently a special place.