Why would the Inchoroi fear damnation?

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Woden

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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 05:43:03 am »
It could be. But why damn to hell all aliens? This would be a xenophobic concept of salvation/damnation, hahahaha.
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solipsisticurge

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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2017, 07:57:30 am »
It could be. But why damn to hell all aliens? This would be a xenophobic concept of salvation/damnation, hahahaha.
...kind of like Abraham anthropomorphic religions you might have heard of? ;)

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Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2020, 08:45:10 pm »
The non-men who were exposed believe oblivion is a lie, but we have seen that even erratic can attain it.
Since that's the only one we've ever seen manage it, for all we know only an erratic could attain it.

I honestly don't think we have enough information here to answer why the Inchoroi aren't ciphrang.
You are missing the point. The mechanics of avoiding damnation are not important.

We know the Inverse Fire is a tool of control. It's a compelling truth, but not the whole truth. Any Dunyain knows the value of partial truths in conditioning via deception.

The Inchoroi are conditioned to believe there is only one way to save their souls because of that. Extermination.

We know that Oblivion is an option. They deny that.

We know that Redemption can come from the one God or the Hundred. They say EVERYONE is damned forever.

We know you can level up your soul. They aren't interested.

Logical induction dictates being careful with immortality means not dying means no damnation. They would rather render themselves extinct trying to shut the world.

Maybe exterminating everyone and erasing history will work to save their souls, maybe they are doing it to free the progenitors from Hell, or maybe the progenitors just want to terraform planets.

Point is, their mission is focused to one goal only, the Inverse Fire is there to keep them on track.

Happily for them, the Dunyain want to do the same thing in pursuit of a Self Moving Soul. The Inverse Fire is barely required to get them to join according to Kellhus PoV in TTT.

This is pretty much the narrative I've settled on at this point. The IF is a whetstone to sharpen the tool that is the Inchoroi. Happens to work on other conscious beings as well.

Its too bad TJE never gazed upon it. I wonder what it would see. Its also too bad that this seems to be the only tool the readers are given to determine what is 'real' in Earwa.

What is or isn't reality (within a book) is ever the perennial problem of too many unreliable narrators :P .
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 02:24:06 pm by Wilshire »
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Odium

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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2020, 12:33:10 pm »
At what point did we discover that Oblivion is an option, that the Hundred and the Solitary God alike can bestow redemption, and that you can level up your soul? I recall hints about these things but not confirmation. I hadn't realized in my reading that there was much solid evidence that the Inverse Fire is just a tool of control, I thought there might be subtle indications that it could be but that the text presents it as a factual vision of damnation.

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 02:34:40 pm »
At what point did we discover that Oblivion is an option,
There's some hints early on, but its not until TAE, maybe Ishterebinth that the idea gets any real credit. Even still, since the Nonmen continue living, its still a pretty dubious claim.

that the Hundred and the Solitary God alike can bestow redemption,
Never. We dont even know the Solitary God is real, and the Hundred are never mentioned as giving redemption like when Mimara forgives via TJE. The Hundred claim dead souls, not redeem them.

and that you can level up your soul?
Unclear. Ironsoul, Cnaiur, and Kellhus, maybe Serwe, have some mentions of looking like ciphrang either through TJE or in Kellhus' case the IF. But we don't know if that is just a metaphor rather than literal, if they did something specific to 'earn' that designation, or if they weren't just "always" that way.

TJE also describes Akka and all schoolmen as similarly blasted and terrifying, in a way that is reminisant of the above examples (IIRC). So it also could be there's plenty of Ciphrang, but equally likely that its all metaphorical.

I hadn't realized in my reading that there was much solid evidence that the Inverse Fire is just a tool of control,
I wouldn't call it 'solid' ;)

I thought there might be subtle indications that it could be but that the text presents it as a factual vision of damnation.
This is the overt direction the books point us in. Just like how TJE is assumed to show objective reality.
Unfortunately we never get a look at something that is seen both through IF and TJE, so we can't really determine which is true, if either, nor see if the visions differ in some meaningful way.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 04:56:22 pm by Wilshire »
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H

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« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2020, 04:07:46 pm »
At what point did we discover that Oblivion is an option,
There's some hints early on, but its not until TAE, maybe Ishterebinth that the idea gets any real credit. Even still, since the Nonmen continue living, its still a pretty dubious claim.

Yeah, it is only in TAE we gets hints of it via Cleric (I think) and it is only more explicitly laid out in Chapter 12 of TGO.

that the Hundred and the Solitary God alike can bestow redemption,
Never. We dont even know the Solitary God is real, and the Hundred are never mentioned as giving redemption like when Mimara forgives via TJE. The Hundred claim dead souls, not redeem them.
Right, there is no "confirmation, per se, of redemption at all.  To me, the "closest" we see is what happens to Sorweel, but even that is ambiguous to some degree.

I hadn't realized in my reading that there was much solid evidence that the Inverse Fire is just a tool of control,
I wouldn't call it 'solid' ;)
I'd actually object to the word "just."  I don't think it is just an tool of control, it's practical application, as we see it, is a tool of control though.  What is it actually?  What is it "really" showing someone?  That is a whole other can of worms.

The "fact" of damnation is well and "open" though, but I don't, personally, believe the Inverse Fire lies at all.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2020, 07:27:58 am »
To my recollection, the so far one and only solid confirmation of Oblivion being an option has been given to us when a Ciphrang was unable to snatch the soul of a Nonman while rampaging through the Ark. The soul just vanished, like it was never there.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 08:04:51 am by SmilerLoki »

mostly.harmless

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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2020, 08:51:43 am »
To my recollection, the so far one and only solid confirmation of Oblivion being an option has been given to us when a Ciphrang was unable to snatch the soul of a Nonman while rampaging through the Ark. The soul just vanished, like it was never there.
Interesting, that didn't register with me! Do you remember where or a phrase that I can use to look up that scene?

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2020, 01:10:37 pm »
Here's RSB's quote on the matter:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36429#msg36429

The scene itself is in TUC, in the only Ciphrang POV in the book. I'll add the quote in a bit.

Here it is:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 15, Golgoterrath
Vile angel.
Its triumphant screech brings down a haze of dust and flaked mortar.
Kakaliol, Reaper-of-Heroes, dandles the thing in its fiery talons. Lolling limbs, head hanging as if from a stocking. Soft skin blistered or abraded or shorn away, a bladder for gelatinous innards and absurd quantities of blood, like an unwrung rag.
But where? Where is the soul?

By the way, I wonder if the boat we all might've missed is the Ark itself (a literal boat, do you see what RSB did there?). It was an advanced AI once upon a time, it might still be only mostly dead.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 01:23:10 pm by SmilerLoki »

H

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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2020, 05:31:01 pm »
By the way, I wonder if the boat we all might've missed is the Ark itself (a literal boat, do you see what RSB did there?). It was an advanced AI once upon a time, it might still be only mostly dead.

It might be the case.  Remember that Bakker likened the function of Insertants into the Sarcophagus as replacement "circuits."  So, if it were the case that it "always" need circuits and it "always" did what they No-God does.  You have a point though, what the Inchoroi lament seems less Ark's death (really) and more it's leadership.  So, it is probably still partly "functional" in the technical sense, but it has no "intentionality" or the like.  This might well be what the Sarcophagus was "always" for, especially when integrated into Ark.

My personal crack-pot is still that Ark was "loaded" with the souls of the Progenitors themselves to bring them and "divest" then when they had reached the "Promised World" but there is nothing to support that, aside the vague allusion of the word Ark in itself.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2020, 06:29:45 pm »
It was always unclear to me what to make of the Progenitors. They might have devolved into what we now know as the Inchoroi, becoming slaves to their own technology. They might have created an advanced weapon in the form of the Ark and sent it on its Crusade, while they themselves remained on their home world, awaiting the results. Or the Progenitors have died off long ago, while their creations waged war against all life. Or any number of other possibilities, including the Progenitors uploading themselves into the Ark.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 06:32:13 pm by SmilerLoki »

mostly.harmless

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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2020, 06:45:19 pm »
Here's RSB's quote on the matter:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36429#msg36429

The scene itself is in TUC, in the only Ciphrang POV in the book. I'll add the quote in a bit.

Here it is:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 15, Golgoterrath
Vile angel.
Its triumphant screech brings down a haze of dust and flaked mortar.
Kakaliol, Reaper-of-Heroes, dandles the thing in its fiery talons. Lolling limbs, head hanging as if from a stocking. Soft skin blistered or abraded or shorn away, a bladder for gelatinous innards and absurd quantities of blood, like an unwrung rag.
But where? Where is the soul?

By the way, I wonder if the boat we all might've missed is the Ark itself (a literal boat, do you see what RSB did there?). It was an advanced AI once upon a time, it might still be only mostly dead.
Much obliged. I can't believe I read over that or missed its significance.

It seems obvious now that that is a probable reference to the Ark ('missed the boat' response). I wouldn't wanna jump to any premature conclusions but it fits nicely on the face of it.

No life-rafts or signal flares/call home features on this boat?

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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2020, 02:59:07 pm »
No life-rafts or signal flares/call home features on this boat?

To me, there are two possible "answers" to this.

One, is that if Ark was somehow still "alive," it could.  Or, two, it never had any intention to, it was all the eggs in the basket, the Progenitors were on board, likely in soul form.

I'd tend to buy the Ark, like Noah's arc, to be more of the latter sort.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2020, 03:32:21 pm »
No life-rafts or signal flares/call home features on this boat?

To me, there are two possible "answers" to this.

One, is that if Ark was somehow still "alive," it could.  Or, two, it never had any intention to, it was all the eggs in the basket, the Progenitors were on board, likely in soul form.

I'd tend to buy the Ark, like Noah's arc, to be more of the latter sort.

If it had a distress signal to send out, the trouble with FTL travel is you end up with very long travel times for speed of light transmissions. Its pretty common in most scifi universes to have either FTL travel or communication, but not both. Its conceivable that a distress signal has not yet reached wherever it was sent to.
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stuslayer

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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2020, 05:14:55 pm »
It crosses my mind that the Ark is simply a vessel, controlled by an advanced AI, which requires a guidance system/OS (Sarcophagus with an Insertant), and every Inchoroi etc. is actually a biomech machine, soulless from the beginning. The Progenitors deceived the Inchoroi with the Inverse Fire as a goad to carry out their orders, by showing the truth of damnation - however this damnation was only applicable to the Progenitors, NOT the Inchoroi, that are like upgraded Sranc and subject to the NG themselves upon Initiation/Resumption.

Under this scenario the 'truth' of damnation is not the Inchies' truth, but they are driven to act upon it. There is no soul to damn. Perhaps this is where Kellhus' mistake originates.