[TUC Spoilers] Serwa and Kelmomas

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Eärwag

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« on: August 06, 2017, 08:52:58 pm »
Hello, I have a question regarding the quarrel that grazes Serwa's knuckle in the Upright Horn.  From the story, Serwa counts 99 chorae and succeeds in evading them all, save for one, that seems to blink into existence the moment she calls for the others outside to come in.  I was wondering how a chorae could escape her Dunyain sorcerous scrutiny, and the only thing I could come up with is the triple sickle pouch of Sorwheel.  Here is what I think might have happened, though I cannot say for sure:

Kelmomas frees himself from his chains, then immediately sets off to see if he can retrieve the pouch he saw fall and be trampled into the dirt, so he can bring it to his father and prove to him he was only acting to protect Kellhus.  I know the story says it disappears back into the earth, but Kel is the No-God and can see through Yatwerian glamours, so I can see that he would be able to get it.  Now Kel has it and is eventually taken by the skin-spy called Serwë.  He is already in the Upright Horn by the time the Ordeal attacks, so maybe he kept the pouch and gave it to one of the Inversi, who affixes it to a quarrel but keeps the pouch on the tip, with instructions to only remove the pouch and fire once Serwa thinks all is safe, or maybe it is possible that Kel himself has the chorae and waits for the right moment to fire.

Anyway, sound plausible?  I can't see any other way to conceal a chorae than with that pouch, and Kel has already shown his fratricidal nature.  What do you think?

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 10:02:39 pm »
I agree with you in thinking that the Chorae that hit Serwa was the one Yatwer had given Sorweel (though I know others in this forum favour the theory that she simply miscalculated).
I was never able to make up my mind about whether it was Kelmomas who used it on her or someone else (an agent of the Consult, maybe, like you suggested) because I couldn't figure out if the timing worked for him. It does seem like it could be possible from your reasoning (and I didn't catch the part about the Chorae in the pouch sinking back into the earth even after reading TUC twice...guess more rereads are in order).
I think it was mentioned in one recent thread that there were other pouches with Chorae-concealing abilities (created by Emilidis, if I remember correctly), but I don't think we hear of any besides Sorweel's being in proximity to the characters, so the law of conservation of detail will probably be in play here.
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 11:01:11 pm »
I still say it would be fitting if it was something as simple as Serwa, while horribly injured, dying, and blind-fighting a dragon and a cohort of urscranc, simply miscounted.

Eärwag

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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2017, 11:36:28 pm »
Thanks ThoughtsOfThelli.  Ok, I wasn't aware that she could have miscalculated, but I find that less likely.  I wasn't sure on the timing either, I couldn't tell how much time went between Serwa falling and Kel appearing behind his father.  I may have overstated the pouch disappearing, here is the quote in TUC page 242 :

Quote
He glimpses the Triple-Crescent Pouch through the trample of booted feet, sees it kicked into stamping obscurity, back into the nowhere from whence it come.

So there are other chorae concealing pouches, made my Emilidis.  I suppose it would be within the ability of the Dunsalt to repair one if they found one, as they did repair a weapon of light.  Makes me wonder of the one Sorwheel had was created by Emilidis too or not. 

Madness

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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 01:54:35 am »
Now Kel has it and is eventually taken by the skin-spy called Serwë.

It isn't the thing-called-Serwe. It's still with Cnaiur at this time (and remember there are many, many Skin-Spies in the Golden Room).

Lol, aside the number of fucking Skin-Spies that the Mutilated have at their disposal scare the shit out of me seeing as there are so few people left who are trained to recognize them. And if we attribute the novel Sayothi Skin-Spy at the beginning of TJE to the Mutilated learning the Tekne, we can assume that Zeum has already been infiltrated as the Three-Seas was before Kellhus.

(though I know others in this forum favour the theory that she simply miscalculated).

I still say it would be fitting if it was something as simple as Serwa, while horribly injured, dying, and blind-fighting a dragon and a cohort of urscranc, simply miscounted.

Yeah, I'm definitely on the miscalculated train.
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Eärwag

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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 07:24:57 am »
It isn't the thing-called-Serwe. It's still with Cnaiur at this time (and remember there are many, many Skin-Spies in the Golden Room).

Lol, aside the number of fucking Skin-Spies that the Mutilated have at their disposal scare the shit out of me seeing as there are so few people left who are trained to recognize them. And if we attribute the novel Sayothi Skin-Spy at the beginning of TJE to the Mutilated learning the Tekne, we can assume that Zeum has already been infiltrated as the Three-Seas was before Kellhus.

I forgot that the skin spy was like his mom, there are so many.  I forgot about the Satyothi too.  It is going to be a rough time.

Dunkelheit

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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 12:33:27 pm »
And if we attribute the novel Sayothi Skin-Spy at the beginning of TJE to the Mutilated learning the Tekne [...]

I don't think this makes any sense. It seemed that the consult was testing their abilities to detect the skin-spies with this alternate skin-spy. If the Dunyains were in control of the consult they would immediately know that they would be able to see right through it. If anything this is a sign that the Dunyains were not in control of the Consult at the time.
Or it could just be a weird anomaly like the skin-spy with a soul.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 12:47:20 pm »
Yeah, I'm definitely on the miscalculated train.
I'm not. Counting the number of Chorae in the room is pretty much the easiest and least remarkable thing Serwa does in that entire scene. The idea that she'd just... miss one seems frankly absurd to me.

It's not necessarily Sorweel's pouch, though. The dragon implies Emilidis died in Golgotterath, so the Consult could easily have had access to such artefacts even without Kelmomas bringing one to the Ark.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

False Man

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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 02:47:34 pm »
Quote
The very World had become as a mill about her, every city, every soul wheels spinning within wheels, murmuring in places, groaning throughout. And in all creation Golgotterath was the most violent grinding gear.
The place most unpredictable.
“Now, Kayûtas!”
She sensed it even as she shouted, the prick of oblivion, no more than two paces to her right, just appearing as if drawn from a pocket ...
She did not need to hear the click.
The quarrel barely stubbed her knuckle, and yet it was enough—more than enough.
The ancient Cindersword did not so much fall from her hand as with ...
The Princess-Imperial slumped to her knees, cradling her stumped right forearm. Blood welled, melting salt as snow.
One hundred, she thought, looking up to the rising menace of Skuthula, the fire-spitting grin ...
One hundred stones.

While it could have been a miscalculation (she counts the Chorae as the hundredth) there's also that just appearing as if drawn from a pocket and Golgotterath as the place most unpredictable.
And having your little brother almost killing you with a magical artifact in the middle of a battle with a dragon, well, it's unpredictable enough to me.

Walter

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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 03:41:41 pm »
I just kind of feel like if Kelmomas was in that scene...he'd have died.  Like, he isn't hopped up on Quirri.  He doesn't have the Gnosis.  If a little boy was scrambling across that room he'd have gotten baked.  I think he must have gotten through earlier, prior to the fight erupting.

Easiest answer for me is that her assailant was a skin spy, with a bag wrapped around its chorae to keep Schoolmen from feeling it.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 03:51:39 pm »
Yeah, I don't think Kelmomas was in the room at the time, necessarily. But Bakker knows what he is doing with the words he chooses. He would not use the exact words "drawn from a pocket" just because it sounded cool. He's telling us that the last Chorae was hidden, either in Sorweel's pouch or in a similar one.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

The Sharmat

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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 07:11:55 pm »
And if we attribute the novel Sayothi Skin-Spy at the beginning of TJE to the Mutilated learning the Tekne [...]

I don't think this makes any sense. It seemed that the consult was testing their abilities to detect the skin-spies with this alternate skin-spy. If the Dunyains were in control of the consult they would immediately know that they would be able to see right through it. If anything this is a sign that the Dunyains were not in control of the Consult at the time.
Or it could just be a weird anomaly like the skin-spy with a soul.
I tend to agree but since we're talking Dunyain it could also be an attempt to obscure the fact that they run the Consult now by resorting to a ploy a Dunyain would not attempt and they know will fail.

Doesn't require much mastery of the Tekne to make a Skin-Spy with more melanin compared to making a Skin-Spy in the first place, so it's not like it would take a Dunyain to try it anyway.

Eärwag

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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 08:13:12 pm »
So either Serwa in her damaged, harried and Qirri-fueled state in the middle of a topoi miscounted the 100 chorae, or the Consult had a chorae concealing pouch of their own and used one of it's agents to use it against Serwa at the most opportune time, probably by a skin spy. A skin spy would be better able to shadow a Dunyain, as it seemed to be right beside her when it fired the quarrel.  I think it wasn't a miscount but a Consult trick, for what it's worth.

While we are on the topic of the Consult testing Kellhus, I have another question that I wasn't sure about, without starting a whole new thread: what was it about Dagliash that seemed to convince Kellhus that the Consult had been conquered by Dunyain?  Did Kellhus doubt the capacity for the Consult to repair and use a weapon of light?  Was it the monumental nature of the trap they laid for Kellhus and the Ordeal?  Was it something he found when he was excavating Dagliash?  Was it the timing?  I know in TUC that Serwa at one point takes note of the timing of the attack on Golgotterath by the Horde, is this a Dunyain kind of thing?

Little Mog

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« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 02:08:37 am »
Earwag - I think the nuke tipped off Kellhus. The Inchoroi used nukes in the wars against the Nonmen, as recorded in the Isuphiryas, as Kellhus mentions, but we haven't seen anything like them in the Sagas. I gather the implication is that the Consult either couldn't make the nukes work, or the Inchoroi had run out of them by then. So in light of that, Kellhus came to the conclusion that it has to be more Dunyain, as who else would be able to either rediscover how to make the nukes work, or to build more?

Granted, the timing and multi-purpose function of the nuke might factor into it as well: deal a terrible blow to the Great Ordeal while also destroying the main food source of the survivors. Not exactly rocket science, but maybe more strategic than the Consult had been in his estimations up until then.

Madness

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« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 03:23:31 pm »
Quote
The very World had become as a mill about her, every city, every soul wheels spinning within wheels, murmuring in places, groaning throughout. And in all creation Golgotterath was the most violent grinding gear.
The place most unpredictable.
“Now, Kayûtas!”
She sensed it even as she shouted, the prick of oblivion, no more than two paces to her right, just appearing as if drawn from a pocket ...
She did not need to hear the click.
The quarrel barely stubbed her knuckle, and yet it was enough—more than enough.
The ancient Cindersword did not so much fall from her hand as with ...
The Princess-Imperial slumped to her knees, cradling her stumped right forearm. Blood welled, melting salt as snow.
One hundred, she thought, looking up to the rising menace of Skuthula, the fire-spitting grin ...
One hundred stones.

While it could have been a miscalculation (she counts the Chorae as the hundredth) there's also that just appearing as if drawn from a pocket and Golgotterath as the place most unpredictable.
And having your little brother almost killing you with a magical artifact in the middle of a battle with a dragon, well, it's unpredictable enough to me.

Yeah, I don't think Kelmomas was in the room at the time, necessarily. But Bakker knows what he is doing with the words he chooses. He would not use the exact words "drawn from a pocket" just because it sounded cool. He's telling us that the last Chorae was hidden, either in Sorweel's pouch or in a similar one.

I do like the simplicity and elegance of another of Emidilis' pouches. Though doesn't she count 100, not 99, right off the hop before beginning her Dance?

And count me among those who do not think it was Kelmomas or Sorweel's pouch.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer