[TUC Spoilers] Serwa and Kelmomas

  • 38 Replies
  • 6427 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 05:38:40 pm »
Though doesn't she count 100, not 99, right off the hop before beginning her Dance?
Nope.

"...and in that heartbeat she absorbed everything illuminated, plotted her lines of flight, for she could feel the ninety-nine Chorae hanging about her..."
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Eärwag

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 09:36:10 pm »
Earwag - I think the nuke tipped off Kellhus. The Inchoroi used nukes in the wars against the Nonmen, as recorded in the Isuphiryas, as Kellhus mentions, but we haven't seen anything like them in the Sagas. I gather the implication is that the Consult either couldn't make the nukes work, or the Inchoroi had run out of them by then. So in light of that, Kellhus came to the conclusion that it has to be more Dunyain, as who else would be able to either rediscover how to make the nukes work, or to build more?

Granted, the timing and multi-purpose function of the nuke might factor into it as well: deal a terrible blow to the Great Ordeal while also destroying the main food source of the survivors. Not exactly rocket science, but maybe more strategic than the Consult had been in his estimations up until then.

That sounds very reasonable to me, thanks. 

generalguy

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 12:08:42 am »
Alternatively it *was* kelmomas in an inverted echo to crab boy pelting the skin spy with the hundredth stone of koringhus but that seems too indirect even for bakker


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 03:59:34 am »
Though doesn't she count 100, not 99, right off the hop before beginning her Dance?
Nope.

"...and in that heartbeat she absorbed everything illuminated, plotted her lines of flight, for she could feel the ninety-nine Chorae hanging about her..."

Thanks.

Also, it's great to read you frequently again, friend.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 12:36:02 pm »
Also, it's great to read you frequently again, friend.
Likewise. :)

I only stayed away for so long so that I could finish reading TGO and TUC without the temptation of spoilers.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

ThoughtsOfThelli

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Thelli's Revenge
  • Posts: 492
  • Approximation of a Human
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 08:07:45 pm »
It isn't the thing-called-Serwe. It's still with Cnaiur at this time (and remember there are many, many Skin-Spies in the Golden Room).

I might not be remembering this correctly, but wasn't the thing-called-Serwë already dead by the time Serwa was hit by the Chorae? Couldn't have been her (him? them?) anyway.


I just kind of feel like if Kelmomas was in that scene...he'd have died.  Like, he isn't hopped up on Quirri.  He doesn't have the Gnosis.  If a little boy was scrambling across that room he'd have gotten baked.  I think he must have gotten through earlier, prior to the fight erupting.

Easiest answer for me is that her assailant was a skin spy, with a bag wrapped around its chorae to keep Schoolmen from feeling it.

Wouldn't Kelmomas have been protected by his own future as the No-God? Meaning, he couldn't have died before going into the Carapace because he had always been destined to become the No-God and thus had always been invisible to the Gods? (This is confusing...)
Or it wasn't him at all but rather the skin-spy like you suggested, that's a much simpler answer.


And feel free to disregard this very silly comparison, but I'm amused at how this is starting to sound like an Eärwan version of Clue (it was Kelmomas, with Sorweel's Chorae, past the Intrinsic Gate...).  :P
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Walter

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 09:27:21 pm »
@ThoughtsOfThelli:

Yeah, he would've been protected, but I think that protection was him deciding not to go in, rather than everything missing him.  It is certainly possible.  Like you say, no way to know. 

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 10:08:04 pm »
The Chorae that salts Serwa's arm is fixed to an arrow. She hears the bowstring click, and it is described as a quarrel bruising her knuckle. Whether or not Kelmomas took that particular Chorae into Golgotterath, it's probably not him wielding it in that moment.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

ThoughtsOfThelli

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Thelli's Revenge
  • Posts: 492
  • Approximation of a Human
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 10:37:08 pm »
@ThoughtsOfThelli:

Yeah, he would've been protected, but I think that protection was him deciding not to go in, rather than everything missing him.  It is certainly possible.  Like you say, no way to know. 

Could be - I wonder if Kelmomas could have even sent the skin-spy inside in his stead (as in, he retrieved the Chorae and the pouch from Sorweel's body but the skin-spy was the one to actually use it).


The Chorae that salts Serwa's arm is fixed to an arrow. She hears the bowstring click, and it is described as a quarrel bruising her knuckle. Whether or not Kelmomas took that particular Chorae into Golgotterath, it's probably not him wielding it in that moment.

Ah, I had forgotten about the arrow... Then I suppose it makes it far more likely for it to have been the skin-spy (though it might have still been Kelmomas' idea?).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Eärwag

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 06:32:13 am »
Could be - I wonder if Kelmomas could have even sent the skin-spy inside in his stead (as in, he retrieved the Chorae and the pouch from Sorweel's body but the skin-spy was the one to actually use it).

I think the pouch and chorae was trampled into the dirt but I imagine Kelmomas could have found it and given it to a skin spy, which makes me wonder how long Kel was wandering around the Upright Horn, and if he had had any contact with the Mutilated.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5224
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2017, 12:08:09 pm »
Also, it's great to read you frequently again, friend.
Likewise. :)

I only stayed away for so long so that I could finish reading TGO and TUC without the temptation of spoilers.

Lol, I'll blame Bakker and Overlook for your absence then ;).

I might not be remembering this correctly, but wasn't the thing-called-Serwë already dead by the time Serwa was hit by the Chorae? Couldn't have been her (him? them?) anyway.

Indeed. Tangentially, I actually don't get why readers seem to want it to be Kelmomas so much.

And feel free to disregard this very silly comparison, but I'm amused at how this is starting to sound like an Eärwan version of Clue (it was Kelmomas, with Sorweel's Chorae, past the Intrinsic Gate...).  :P

Love it. Especially because then it would mean we could insert Tim Curry into TSA 8).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2017, 03:00:56 pm »
I actually don't get why readers seem to want it to be Kelmomas so much.
Because it is narratively more 'neat and tidy' if Kelmomas is responsible for the deaths of all his siblings. That would also form a nice parallel to the No-God metaphorically 'killing' all of its 'siblings', the Gods. It just seems to 'fit' somehow.

Of course, that sort of 'neat and tidy' resolution would be completely at odds with how Bakker writes. :)
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

solipsisticurge

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 79
  • There is a head on a pole behind him.
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2017, 08:55:25 pm »
...what stopped an archer from picking up a chorae that had previously missed?

Ninety-nien chorae can be ninety-nine thousand on a long enough timeframe, unless they explode from shame upon a near miss.
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

ThoughtsOfThelli

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Thelli's Revenge
  • Posts: 492
  • Approximation of a Human
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2017, 01:18:04 pm »
Indeed. Tangentially, I actually don't get why readers seem to want it to be Kelmomas so much.

Because it is narratively more 'neat and tidy' if Kelmomas is responsible for the deaths of all his siblings. That would also form a nice parallel to the No-God metaphorically 'killing' all of its 'siblings', the Gods. It just seems to 'fit' somehow.

Of course, that sort of 'neat and tidy' resolution would be completely at odds with how Bakker writes. :)

I fully agree with Duskweaver here, it makes thematic sense for it to have been Kelmomas (or the skin-spy that was with him, with Kelmomas still having the idea), not so much for a random Consult agent. But yes, it might work out a little too well for a Bakker book.


Love it. Especially because then it would mean we could insert Tim Curry into TSA 8).

That would be so amazing. :) I really should add the "Eärwan Clue" idea to the (hypothetical) merchandising thread...


...what stopped an archer from picking up a chorae that had previously missed?

Ninety-nien chorae can be ninety-nine thousand on a long enough timeframe, unless they explode from shame upon a near miss.

I thnk it was an extra one, if it had been one of the previous 99 wouldn't Serwa have felt it near her again?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Mandos

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2017, 06:47:18 am »
Is anyone else being reminded of The Survivor's Son (aka Crabhand) from The Great Ordeal, when reading this scene? (I didn't see anything mentioned in the thread - correct me if I'm wrong). After emerging from TTH in ruins of Ishual, Koringhus collects 100 stones, goes into the forest and kills 99 birds, because "he can't stop killing", with 1 stone per 1 bird. Later, under effects of the Qirri, he gives the 100th stone to his son, before taking his final leap. Later still, The Survivor's Son eludes C'nauir's companion skin spy, who looks like original Serwe, by striking her with 100th stone, while on the cliffs.

The parallels, or perhaps inversions, of Serwa & 100th missing Chorae to Koringhus's Son striking skin spy Serwe with his 100th stone are striking. I don't know what exactly to make of it. The Survivor said in TGO "That all of this has somehow already happened." This is clearly not a case of replaying things exactly the same, but it does remind me dualities concept found in mathematics/physics where two theories/formulas can be translated back and forth into each other, which makes calculations which are difficult in one - much easier in the other one. This feels like something along the same lines: the same event, just being given different interpretation/inverted in some ways. Also reminds me of those boxes, mentioned in appendix, which show horrible/demonic scenes from some perspectives, but good/heavenly scene from another.